Is it possible that the reason some late steamers were not saved is that they had "defective" boilers?

I have heard the reason the Milwaukee F7's (Baltic's) were retired fairly early was due to their alloy boilers. I recently read something on the web that stated many of these boilers had cracking problems.

I'm the first to admit I know little about water heaters, so I'm throwing this out there to get some experts thoughts.

Also, someone mentioned that possibly the Clinchfield locomotives hung around because they were not paid for at the end of steam. Apparently, this is one reason two Milwaukee S3's were saved (built 1944) while everything else, save a ten wheeler in Austin MN, went to scrap.

Todd Jones

Restoring MILW E9 33C
milw104c@charter.net

Any idea what the "alloy steel" was that they used??


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Any idea what the "alloy steel"
> was that they used??

Nickle steel was used in a lot of late 30's-40's U.S. boilers. The material turned out to be very susceptible to cracking at rivet holes. Holes for rivets were typically "punched" out rather than drilled, and this process had worked fine for normal steel boilers. The nickle steel was more brittle and microscopic "tears" formed when the holes were punched, which eventually developed into full cracks. I believe water treatment was also a problem with this material. This was another of those things that unnecessarily helped put another nail in steam's coffin in the late 40's/early 50's. Lots of modern steam locomotives were scrapped in the late 40's/early 50's to avoid having to replace these defective nickle steel boilers.


The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com

The nickel steels were plagued with a problem called "blue embrittlement" which was the result of improper heat treatment. This was a serious issue during WWII and was kept as a military secret until well after the war was over. Thus, many of the boilers built during this period developed cracking due to blue embrittlement. It wasn't until almost 1950 that proper heat treating of the nickel steels made into the general steel making industry. Ohio Central 1293 (CP G-5) was built in 1948 with a nickel steel boiler but, because of cracking, had a new nickel steel boiler installed in 1950. I believe the alloy is SA202.

aw90h@cs.com

> Also, someone mentioned that possibly the
> Clinchfield locomotives hung around because
> they were not paid for at the end of steam.
> Apparently, this is one reason two Milwaukee
> S3's were saved (built 1944) while
> everything else, save a ten wheeler in
> Austin MN, went to scrap.

We have a number of reports that the C&O did not dispose of the Pere Marquette 2-8-4's until their 20-year equipment trusts expired. Maybe this was common. The 1937 Berkshires were reassigned elsewhere on the C&O in the early 1950's. The 1941 and perhaps the 1944 engines were not scrapped until 1961. At a recent meeting of the Pere Marquette Historical Society, an engineman reported seeing the 1200's hauled out of Waverly (Holland, MI) Yard to Indiana steel mills in that year, after sitting disused for 10 years. He understood the expiry of the equipment trusts as the reason for scrapping the engines at that time. Preserved locomotives 1223 and 1225 were withdrawn from the group of stored engines in 1957 and 1961.

The trust plates (National Bank of Detroit) were still on the 1225 when it was donated to the MSU Museum, riveted to the frame between the trailing-truck axles, although what appears to have been a trust plate was removed from the tender frame. Of course the trust was still in effect when the engine was stuffed and mounted in 1957, so there would have been no reason to break the plate off as was usually done. I believe all the 1223 has is two fragments of the plates. (The 1225's intact plates are now locked up for safekeeping.)

Aarne H. Frobom
The Steam Railroading Institute
P. O. Box 665
Owosso, MI 48867-0665

froboma@mdot.state.mi.us

Coupla interesting things on nickel steel. Hi-Ni steel is is called "maraging steel". ...maraging steels can be fabricated while they are in a comparatively ductile condition and later strengthened by a simple aging treatment ...Maraging steels are annealed at 1500F for one hour, air cooled to room temperature, and finally aged at 900F for three hours... [To minimize cracking you would perform the heat treatment after boiler fab was complete, and whenever you made repairs] ... the 18% nickel steels have a resistance to stress-corrosion cracking that is superior to that of any known alloy of comparable strength ...caustic cracking of boiler sometimes occurs when alkalies are present in the boiler feedwater... common methods of protection when using alkaline water are to maintain a ratio of sulphate to alkali above a certain value which depends on working pressure.[Sounds to me like you better know what the hell you are doing before you mess with one of these boilers. If you or your fabricator do not understand the characteristics of these materials it could lead to real problems, on the other hand proper handling should produce a superior boiler]
PS: with apologies to USS "Making, Shaping and Treating of Steel" and a BSMet


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> We have a number of reports that the C&O
> did not dispose of the Pere Marquette
> 2-8-4's until their 20-year equipment trusts
> expired. Maybe this was common. The 1937
> Berkshires were reassigned elsewhere on the
> C&O in the early 1950's. The 1941 and
> perhaps the 1944 engines were not scrapped
> until 1961. At a recent meeting of the Pere
> Marquette Historical Society, an engineman
> reported seeing the 1200's hauled out of
> Waverly (Holland, MI) Yard to Indiana steel
> mills in that year, after sitting disused
> for 10 years. He understood the expiry of
> the equipment trusts as the reason for
> scrapping the engines at that time.
> Preserved locomotives 1223 and 1225 were
> withdrawn from the group of stored engines
> in 1957 and 1961.

> The trust plates (National Bank of Detroit)
> were still on the 1225 when it was donated
> to the MSU Museum, riveted to the frame
> between the trailing-truck axles, although
> what appears to have been a trust plate was
> removed from the tender frame. Of course the
> trust was still in effect when the engine
> was stuffed and mounted in 1957, so there
> would have been no reason to break the plate
> off as was usually done. I believe all the
> 1223 has is two fragments of the plates.
> (The 1225's intact plates are now locked up
> for safekeeping.)

> Aarne H. Frobom
> The Steam Railroading Institute
> P. O. Box 665
> Owosso, MI 48867-0665

Aarne: For the record, apparently not all of the PM 1200's went to Indiana steel mills. I recall passing a scrapper somewhere in Chicago while on what I believe was a GTW fantrip (although it may have been behind the late Dick Jensen's ex-GTW 4-6-2 #5629 over the B&OCT) and saw a number of steam locomotives and someone on the trip stated they were Pere Marquette 2-8-4's from New Buffalo. Of course, the steel as scrap may well have ended up at a Indiana steel mill.

midlandblb@cs.com