Its cold here in the Northeast-ah for those balmy 60 degree days this past November-maybe I'm off track here, but I wonder if anybody else has a wishlist of what is gone but would be special because? Maybe we can learn for the future from the losses of the past that really hurt.

1.) A Lehigh Valley Wyoming-They had fine lines and would've made a fine excursion engine. Not a single LV steamer survived the 244 onslaught of President Major. A picture of one of these engines appeared in Aug '69 TRAINS nearing the crest of the brutal grade from Coxton to Mountaintop, PA, ironically just two months after the Buffalo Creek & Gauley #4 (happily now at NCTM, I believe) brought steam to the "valley" for the first time since 1951. Just three years later-that part of the line was abandoned for a partion of the near parallel CNJ line when they split PA. Today, its a dirt road, the very spot where the picture was taken is a parking lot used primarily when the local volunteer fire. company holds its annual bazaar.

2.) CNJ PACIFIC 833. Used on the bullet out of Wilkes Barre, that train was short-lived. Sleek and powerful, it was among the best the CNJ ever had. Although the right-of-way is gone, the station survives-just barely-as a textbook case of adaptive reuse gone horribly wrong. The "embedded" cadillac is a poster child for how not to do it. My apologies to 774 fans.

3.) DL&W 1643 (or any 1500 or 1600) Pocono. There's a story in these parts that the Lackawanna would've donated one of these engines to the City of Scranton for display, but it was nixed. One account says the then mayor said this is our past not our future. Who could've imagined that 30 years later, Steamtown would make that prediction wrong.

If I were king of the hill for a day, I would have saved the Burlington Route Depot in my hometown of Palmyra, Missouri. The Depot was bulldozed in the fall of 1990 with no advance notice from the BN.

Structurally, there was nothing wrong with this solid brick structure...conventional wisdom is that the BN didn't want to pay property taxes on the structure, but they didn't even give local authorities advance notice to find a solution.

Why would I want to see it today? It is where I first learned about railroads from a kind Burlington Agent, Wayne Beever. The depot saw the passage of some of the Burlington's great trains in regular service, plus the passage of no less than the California and Denver Zephyrs as well as Santa Fe's Super Chief on detours.

Although regular freight agent service ended in the late 1970s, the structure served as a home for maintenance of way and signal gangs until it's untimely demise.

BN's screw up in destroying it was validated in 1993 when the Mississippi River went gonzo and took out what was (and is) the West Quincy (Missouri) yards. The BN found anew the value of the Palmyra depot when they were able to store all kinds of stuff without threat of flooding. 'Cept the depot wasn't there any more! Container boxes and box cars populate the sidings adjacent to the depot's location.

In the grand scheme of preservation, is the leveling of Palmyra's depot a major hit? Probably not. But the wanton destruction of the structure for absolutely no valid reason where I 'earned my spurs' still lives with me today, over 10 years after the fact. For every Palmyra Depot that was demolished, how many other items have slipped through our grasp?

The demolition of the depot solidified my move towards learning all I could about the Q and my eventual membership in the Burlington Route Historical Society. Try and find a green motor or item or rolling stock on my layout! All I have are my memories and slides....

Regards (and everywhere west),

Burlington John


Burlington Route Historical Society
cbqjohn@msn.com

My own picks would be:

1. An Atlantic Coast Line 1800-series R-1 4-8-4: These engines gave a lot of problems initially due to improper balancing, but they were among the most handsome 4-8-4's with two-tone metallic gray/black paint jobs, 80" Baldwin disk drivers, and 8 axle tenders. Used to regularly blast through my tiny home-town in SC (before I was born) at 90+ MPH on the front of ~20 car heavyweight passenger trains.

2. A Pennsylvania T-1 4-4-4-4: A rocketship on drivers! Troublesome engines, but rumored to be capable of ~140 MPH! A technological "high water" mark for U.S. steam design.

3. An NYC J3 4-6-4: Probably one of the most recognized steam locomotives to layman and one which practically all railway enthusiasts would like to have around. If we ever get around to building a new steamer from scratch like the British A-1 "Tornado" project, this would be my pick.

> Its cold here in the Northeast-ah for those
> balmy 60 degree days this past
> November-maybe I'm off track here, but I
> wonder if anybody else has a wishlist of
> what is gone but would be special because?
> Maybe we can learn for the future from the
> losses of the past that really hurt.


the Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com

1. The 8 Union Pacific E units that were retired in 1980 (4 A's and 4 B units), of which all but two were promptly sold for scrap. The two survivors met exactly opposite fates. UP 951 was retained intact in Cheyenne, and was rebuilt for their current executive fleet. UP 928 however was donated (sans prime mover and traction motors) to the Western Heritage Museum, who allowed it to be horribly vandalized. They then sold it to a "gentleman" who made no secret of his plans to remove the cab, and scrap the rest of the enigne.

In 1975, I was on an excursion with 8444, which broke down on her first photo runby. She backed down into Cheyenne, and the UP called up E9's 960 and 974B to complete the excursion, complete with a photo runby. Just six years later I had the misfortune of seeing a slide of the half scrapped 960 at Naporano's. I felt like I had been kicked in the stomach.

2. A Burlington M4 class 2-10-4. I remember these as the only steam I saw in regular service dragging coal trains past Virden, Ill. in the 50's. Ron Ziel did a photo essay on the death of 6316 in his book "The Twilight of the Steam Locomotive." Are you reading this Burlington John?

3. A GM&O E unit, (my favorite was 103A). I thought they were the most beautiful passenger trains I had ever seen, and I have seen few paint schemes that were better.

kevingillespie@usa.net

This I had to think about and weigh against what the rest of you listed, so, I'm going to treat this as cumulative, since we all get to save three things.

#1 This one wasn't too tough, there was a picture I ran across several years ago of the first original M1000 laying at the top of a scrap heap. it was heartbreaking. Such a landmark machine and gone forever. So #1 is the M10000.

#2 This must be because there just aren't any left anywhere and I'm perverse enough to want to see one, a Baldwin Centipede.

#3 Was tough and now I'm going to be really selfish. I wish there was some way we could have saved the railyard,all the rails, and the rail traffic through Xenia, Ohio. Then I could lay in bed at night and listen to the trains and not just the echoes of what used to be.

By the way, Kevin, I agree with you. There isn't much that's prettier than a GM&O E-Unit. But you already got to save those on your list or the "Ann Rutledge" would have gone on mine.

Just train crazy,

-Angie

Ladypardus@cs.com

My picks are all from Northeastern railroads, so bear with me. I chose these based on the fact that none of these railroads have any steam in existence. The New Haven only has one very pre-1900 steamer left, so that is an exception.

1. Any one of the Lehigh and Hudson River mountains. They were rather new when scrapped.

2. Any modern New Haven steam. I would pick one of the streamlined hudsons.

3. Any Erie steam. I think any of their heavy pacifics would have been appropriate, a berkshire would be a good alternative, as they would be different from any of the others currently in existence.


baniaj2@yahoo.com

Well, as some may have noticed, I lean towards the Milwaukee;

1; 4-6-4 F7 Baltic Any one of the 6 built.

2; I have noticed a distinct lack of diesels, so how about an A-B-A set of stainless nosed Erie Builts as assigned to the Olympian Hi.

3; And for the juice crowd, a Baldwin-Westinghouse Quill would be neat to have around. Big impressive power.

Since the limit is three, unfortunately an S2 Northern can't be included. Much more imposing than the S3's that were saved.



Restoring MILW E9 33C
milw104c@charter.net

> Its cold here in the Northeast-ah for those
> balmy 60 degree days this past
> November-maybe I'm off track here, but I
> wonder if anybody else has a wishlist of
> what is gone but would be special because?
> Maybe we can learn for the future from the
> losses of the past that really hurt.

As I look at the spread of responses I think of one dismantlement of a historic location that happened in the 1980's out in California - namely the Westside Lumber Co. shops and equipment collection. I will always remember the year my Dad and I decided to investigate what remained at the Westside shops in Tuolumne. Imagine our surprise when we found the equipment operating! I do not know the entire history, but Mr. Bell (of Taco Bell fame) purchased, restored and operated the remaining westside equipment as a "amusement park." The original shops and equipment made this site as much a historical site as the East Broad Top, Sierra Ry shops at Jamestown, Nevada Northern shops and Durango. I was unfortunately too young to take pictures, but I remember taking a tour through the shops with all the original belt driven machinery, etc. When Mr. Bell tired of his toy - it never made money and was never advertised either - he ending up selling the property to a campground club and all the machinery, locomotives and cars were sold piecemeal. I do not know what, if anything was scrapped but I am sure many of the remaining cars were parted out. Fortunately the locomotives still run at Georgetown Loop, Yosemite Mountain Sugarpine RR, and Roaring Camp.

It is just a shame that a collection as big and preserved as the Westside Lumber Co. has been dispersed after remaining intact from the 1960's. Where else could the story of logging in the Sierra Nevada's been told better than at Tuolumne. As a sidenote, the campground never was started and the property sits unoccupied to this day.

siegwarth@grsi.net

Well here goes
#1 The Santa Fe's Blue Goose..I mean how could the only streamlined engine the ATSF ever had go to the scrappers?
#2 Any NYC hudson, I mean we even had two chances, as the TH&B were operating ex NYC hudsons up in Canada.
#3 NOw the decisions get harder, either a NYC 4-8-4, or a milwaukee road 4-4-2

b.hume@rogers.com

1.Mid-Continent Railway Museum since a MLS&W coach is more important to the museum than having a steam engine running. Because when the average person (foamers don't ride trains they just take pictures)goes to the museum they could care less about an old wood coach from a RR that they never heard of. They just want to ride behind a steam engine and when it is a big blue diesel they aren't as enthused thus ridership is down and a whole museum is in jeopardy. Don't get me wrong the coach is important but what are you going to do with a coach and NO MUSEUM. Now onto the dreams.
2.CMSt.P&O Class I-1 4-6-0 What I would give to see one of them hoppin' along through the north woods of Wisconsin.
3.The "400" pulling out of Madison St. Station. Thus 2 things since the station and the "400" are both gone.

ablemanscurve@hotmail.com

[1] READING G-3 #219.
Because: This was the last pacific built in the U.S., and the last steamer built in Reading Shops.
Completed in 1948, the ten G-3 engines were doomed in only two years with the arrival of the first FP-7's.
The City of Reading [PA] was offered this engine by the RR. when the G-3 class was retired in the late 1950's, after serving on the PRSL. The city said it would accept the engine if the railroad would construct the display site and install the engine [many city blocks away from any track] in City Park.

The RR said nerts.

That's why Reading City Park has a ship's anchor on display (the great seaport of Reading!) and nothing at all anywhere in the city to even give a nod to the great impact the Reading RR had on the city for over 100 years! [I'm finished with the soapbox now.]

[2] Any early Philadelphia & Reading (built) engine, such as a Milholland Gunboat, or a camelback [a road engine, not to negate the 0-4-0 at Strasburg.]
Because: of the pioneering strides that were made by the P&R which influenced all the Anthracite Roads in their steam motive power.

[3] A Jersey Central Blue Comet Pacific.
Because: they were such beauties, and the train died such a premature death. Yes the engines lived into the 1950's, but were more beautiful in Blue Comet service [but I'd settle for one either color].

Fun thread. Beats counting sheep anytime.

> Fun thread. Beats counting sheep anytime.

The only problem is that the cumulative outrage tends to elevate the blood pressure.


kevingillespie@usa.net