Does anyone have a convenient reference on hand regarding weights of Pullman heavyweight sleepers?

We're working on a project to have new leaf springs made for our 1917 heavyweight 7-compartment 2-bedroom sleeper Corydon, but for some reason our files are silent as to its weight.

Can anyone advise? Perhaps you know the weight of a simialr car in your own collection?

Thanks.

http://www.oerm.org

John,

Our Museum roster lists weights of many of our cars, and heavyweight Pullman cars were just that, HEAVY. A quick scan shows most in the range of 130,000 to 180,000 lbs although one tips the scales at 211,000 lbs!

Most fall in the range of 150K - 170K. Probably not much help but maybe a starting point for you.

Bob Kutella

Don't forget, it depends on the type of A/C installed. Looked at my small collection of passenger car diagrams. Sleeping cars with Pullman mechanical A/C were all around 185,000 lbs. Lounge-sleepers were a bit heavier. No data, but I have read that ice A/C cars were somewhat lighter.

Are there any markings on the springs themselves? A stamping on the spring clip of a 4-digit number preceded by "E" (for full elliptical) might be all the spring manufacturer needs to replicate the spring. Of course, there's no guarantee the car has the right springs in it now . . .

Tom Madden with the Historical Pullman Project has supplied the info:

Bison Peak, 177,260 lbs w/ water tanks filled

Corydon, 162,300 lbs w/ water tanks filled

Our thanks to Tom


http://www.pullmanproject.com/

A word of caution: As-built weights will not include air conditioning, which was generally added during the 1930's.

If you really are that concerned, weigh it yourself. Rent or borrow a calibrated strain gauge. Jack up one end so the car is barely clear of the truck. Put the strain gauge on one side so it will support one corner of the car with a steel or wood block supporting the other corner. Record the weight on the strain gauge. Perform the same procedure on the other three corners of the car. Add all four figures and you should know how much the car body weighs within about fifty pounds. Don't forget to allow weight for water in tanks, fuel, passengers, luggage and supplies.

We have used this procedure on wooden interurban car bodies at Western Railway Museum with good results.

fk

Something to keep in mind when calculating weight for selecting the correct spring groups to use on passenger cars and locomotives is the un-sprung mass of the truck which is a considerable portion of total weight.

Wheelsets, Journal boxes/adapters, and equalizers represent unsprung mass and should not be included when selecting primary suspension springs (equalizer or journal box). Truck frame, bolster, spring plank, and associated rigging must be included and added to the carbody weight.

The secondary suspension weight calcualtion should subtract the same as the primary and should also subtract the truck frame and associated rigging. The weight of the bolster/centerplate must be added to the carbody weight.

It has been my experience that the most accurate corner weights are observed by placing four load cells at jacking locations closest to the truck center line at each corner and lifting the carbody dead level off the trucks.

Having accurate side to side weights will allow you to select the proper spring and save the trouble of excessive shimming and the changes changes in truck geometry that it creates in leveling the carbody.

As for weighing trucks and associated equipment I have had good results using the load scale built in to our crane.

EBL

Art Schwartz wrote:

Your point is well taken.

As the OERM intermediary in obtaining the information I can provide the following:

CORYDON, a 7 Cmpt - 2 DRm car from 1917, never had AC installed or had any significant modifications. The weight is from 1924.

BISON PEAK, a 10 sec - 2 DRm car, weight that John quoted is after AC was installed. But the weight was with the water tanks empty! Now to craw under the car and measure the tank(s) -- water is 8.34 lbs per gallon, 7.48 gallons per cu. ft., 62.38 lbs per cu.ft. (I work in the domestic water industry).

E.B. Levin wrote:


We were able to obtain from the Pullman records the total weight of the trucks. But that does not separate the sprung and unsprung weights.

A big thank you to all who have supplied information and comments.

Where did you find Corydon? I am surprised that a Pullman built as late as 1917 that was not converted to an all-section tourist configuration was never air conditioned.

CORYDON was sold by Pullman to 20th Century-Fox studio 24 April 1944. When the car arrived at Orange Empire the toilet seat covers were screwed down with lag screws from the hallway. I would suspect that the car was used in some kind of tourist or troop service. The car along with others were purchased by Short Line Enterprises from the studio in 1972; and it was sold for a restaurant that never happened; OERM acquired it from a storage site in the mid-1980s.

The CORYDON has 7 Compartments and 2 Drawing Rooms and as such was originally used on the high-end trains and those serving resort areas (Florida and Los Angeles). Sister car GLENGYLE built in 1910 is at Age of Steam (now named Museum of the American Railroad) in Dallas and it received AC in 1937. These cars were built 1910-1917 and then in 1923; only a few received AC. These cars were supplemented by the 6 Compartment - 3 Drawing Room cars of the 1920s.

There was an other Pullman that 20th Century-Fox had and it went the same route; but it was acquired by Pacific Southwest Ry Museum (San Diego Ry Museum). This was the 10 sec - open platform lounge COMMANDANT built in 1915 and sold to the studio the same date. See this site for more information: Pullman Commandant

In the same deal Orange Empire also acquired a 1911 Harriman coach once owned by Oregon Short Line (UP) #692 (renumbered from #107 c.1915) and then owned by the movie studio. Some UP information I have shows the car being serviced in Los Angeles in about 1947 as I recall. [A sister car (#683 ex-98) went to the Sierra Ry from Short Line Enterprises and is now part of the State Museum there as Sierra #11.]

Why don't you spend $15 or $30 (depends on the size of the package) on the specification and drawing list for that early Pullman lot number associated with the Corydon, since the original specifications may apply. Call us at the Pullman Library on Wednesday, 10 am - 4:30 pm (before that, please!) at 815-923-2020 and we can at least read off what is shown to see how it compares to Tom Madden's numbers. Sometimes the weight will be different on the two ends depending on the car type (diners, for example). By now you may have the best numbers and methods but it is always a benefit to double check everything.
Ted Anderson, curator

Thanks for the detailed info. A deluxe Pullman in practically as-built condition is a really rare item. Take good care of it.

Yes "practically" as-built.

The car does need a number of ceiling light fixtures and various brass shelves in the rooms and locks for the lockers.

The car interior was repainted once. The original was simulated wood-grain throughout with gold leaf lining in the rooms. It was repainted with a brown color at some time. The wood-grain paint survives in places like the inside the lockers and where the advertising sign was mounted opposite the vestibule doors (and can also be seen where there has been flaking).

The aisle side:

Ted- great idea, we'll do it. Brian will be in touch.

Any chance you guys also have a Pullman spring folio from the heavyweight era? Wouldn't mind seeing how many variations in the leaf springs there were depending on the car type. My guess is they standardized on a couple of springs and these served a range of weights, but I could be wrong.