Does anyone know if they have started to do maintenance on their collection yet, or are they again sinking their money into excursions (with Ohio Central now instead of NS) and allowing themselves to degrade further into a glorified junk yard? I used to live near Worthington, and found the deferred maintenance to be, well, disheartening to say the least....

TJG

Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

The following is my opinion only. I am not a member of the ORM. I work about a mile from the museum but have not joined because of unpleasent encounters with museum personnel in the past. I have contemplated joining since then since they seem to be getting their act together in the past 5 years or so.

I visited the ORM in the early 80's, once in the early 90's, once about '95 and again in 2000. In the late 80's and early 90's the place looked like a scrap yard and wasn't even open at all. It was looking better by 1995 and they were open weekends again. There were coverings on the majority of the trolleys and there was the beginnings of paint on their N&W steamer. At that time of my visit in the mid-90's they were operating demo trolley rides but the electrical supply system had broken down so admission was reduced.

Last year, I got to ride one of their PCC cars. According to the operator they had about 5 cars that were close to operating condition, but two or three needed some work before operating again. Of the dozen or so trolleys, one was very nice museum quality, about three more were presentable and the rest ranged from slightly unpresentable to deplorable. The ones in the worst shape and most needed covered were covered. Their two traction locos look OK but not what I'd call museum quality. Their Vulcan 0-4-0 is on an isolated display track, indicating there is no plans for steam in the future. It looks mediocre. The N&W Pacific has about 3/4 of a paint of gloss black and looks much better than last time I was there. The train behind the Pacific (three heavyweights I believe) is open to the public, but shouldn't be except the RPO. The interiors smell of rot and don't really look presentable. Clean off the rust and dirt at least. The remainder of their mainline passenger stock stuck up at the north end of the yard looks very rough. Their storage barn that covers about four short pieces at the south end of the yard also looks rough and has lost part of its roof covering. Inside is a very nicely restored caboose of unknown origin. They appear to own a couple reefer cars and a flat stored on a siding up the line. They look to have been left to the elements and vandals.

The ride on the PCC was smooth and the car performed reliably. We stopped to watch freights on the adjacent NS (former PRR then N&W) and CSX (former NYC then CR) lines. The staff conveyed a 'train club' feel rather than a museum or excursion railroad feel.

My overall impression is that the place has looked better each time I visit but much work has to be done. Progress is being made at least.

ORM has a web site at
http://www.ohiorailwaymuseum.org/
on which I can't find any info on their equipment.

> Does anyone know if they have started to do
> maintenance on their collection yet, or are
> they again sinking their money into
> excursions (with Ohio Central now instead of
> NS) and allowing themselves to degrade
> further into a glorified junk yard? I used
> to live near Worthington, and found the
> deferred maintenance to be, well,
> disheartening to say the least....

> TJG


The East Broad Top Railroad Homepage

ebtrr@spikesys.com

I'm glad to see that something is being done at ORM, however it doesn't sound much better than when I was there in 1997. As far as I know, most of ORM's power structure is still devoted to running excursions - that is the impression given by both the website, which hardly mentions the actual museum site at all, and the deplorable state of the equipment. From what I know of happenings at ORM, there are different factions that are constantly at odds, and I'm not sure that this situation is likely to change anytime soon. It's going to take a lot for ORM to erase its reputation as the nation's best example of how to run a fine museum into the ground through neglect and indifference.

Frank Hicks

A snapshot of ORM in the 1970's
frank@gats.com

Wow, this place sounds like the northern branch of the Age of Steam RR Museum of Dallas, especially the part about the unpleasantness of the paid staff. Volunteers have a strange expectation to be treated with at least the consideration one might give a monkee.

> The following is my opinion only. I am not a
> member of the ORM. I work about a mile from
> the museum but have not joined because of
> unpleasent encounters with museum personnel
> in the past.

> I visited the ORM in the early 80's, once in
> the early 90's, once about '95 and again in
> 2000. In the late 80's and early 90's the
> place looked like a scrap yard and wasn't
> even open at all.
The train
> behind the Pacific (three heavyweights I
> believe) is open to the public, but
> shouldn't be except the RPO. The interiors
> smell of rot and don't really look
> presentable. Clean off the rust and dirt at
> least. The remainder of their mainline
> passenger stock stuck up at the north end of
> the yard looks very rough. Their storage
> barn that covers about four short pieces at
> the south end of the yard also looks rough
> and has lost part of its roof covering.
> Inside is a very nicely restored caboose of
> unknown origin. They appear to own a couple
> reefer cars and a flat stored on a siding up
> the line. They look to have been left to the
> elements and vandals.

The AOS touts its collection of Heavyweight equipment as one of the nations most extensive, but affords it no protection. A turn of the century buisiness car is allowed to rot offsite.

> ORM has a web site at
> http://www.ohiorailwaymuseum.org/
> on which I can't find any info on their
> equipment.


lorija799@aol.com

I dug up my photos (about a dozen) of my last visit this past June or July. On the bright side, car 21 in your snapshot is still in very nice condition. It is under their shelter and open to the public (as a car like this should be.) If the rest of the collection could be brought up to that standard the ORM would be a find museum yet again.
Their two PCC cars looked nice, but not pristine. I didn't take photos of the rest of the trolleys as where they were under tarlaun covers, except the one that should have been.

A couple other notes: The grounds were very clean, well maintained and well surfaced. The staff was courteous, but more interested in having conversations with each other than with the visitors. Some attempts are being made to interpret. On the ride, the history of the ROW and the car we were riding was related to the riders. Some pieces had interpretive plaques, but many more lacked them. No volunteers were observed doing any preservation or restoration work during any of my visits to the ORM.

I expect I'll drop by again this coming summer to see how things have progressed.

> I'm glad to see that something is being done
> at ORM, however it doesn't sound much better
> than when I was there in 1997. As far as I
> know, most of ORM's power structure is still
> devoted to running excursions - that is the
> impression given by both the website, which
> hardly mentions the actual museum site at
> all, and the deplorable state of the
> equipment. From what I know of happenings at
> ORM, there are different factions that are
> constantly at odds, and I'm not sure that
> this situation is likely to change anytime
> soon. It's going to take a lot for ORM to
> erase its reputation as the nation's best
> example of how to run a fine museum into the
> ground through neglect and indifference.

> Frank Hicks


The East Broad Top Railroad Homepage

ebtrr@spikesys.com

Although I have never been to the ORM when it was open, last time being around 1996, and the equipment I could see always looked atrocious, I wonder why this one museum seems to garner so much negative publicity.

Is it the worst I've ever seen. Well, I've seen much larger collections of equipment assembled in one place that was as bad or worse as what I saw at ORM. In fact, I haven't been to any RR museum anywhere that didn't have a few skeletons in the closet, or even in the livingroom.

One place I visited several years ago that was just absolutely terrible was Travel Town in LA. I am mentioning them because on my last visit in the Spring of 2001, they had made remarkable strides in improving the condition of their very large and very noteworthy collection. Not that everything was perfect, but overall the improvement was astonishing.

Another place that ranked up there in the unbelievably bad category was the NW RR Museum in Snoqualmie. Again, I am mentioning them because there has recently been very tangible, visible progress in turning things around. Whatever their past failings, they now seem to be very competently managed and definitely headed in the right direction.

And for the record, although the Age of Steam in Dallas has their problems, they also have some very outstanding success stories, the SF M-160 Doodlebug for one (is there a better example of that type of vehicle, aesthetically and mechanically, in existence). They also did an excellent job cosmetically restoring their GG-1. Generally, although their equipment is outside it is in a fenced area and relatively secure and protected. And, whatever the political environment at the AOS, I doubt anyone who visits there will be treated rudely. In fact, quite the contrary.

Regardless, I get a little antsy about these kind of posts. I don't want to censor things to the point where nobody can say anything bad about anybody, and there is no doubt the ORM has been on a very long term downslide. But, it does seem there has been some progress there, and I have seen remarkable transformations in relatively short periods of time when people work together to try and make changes.

It would seem to me the ORM has a location most RR museums would die for, and although, sadly, much of their collection has deteriorated to the point of no return, they still have stuff worth saving, and seem to be making strides in the right direction.

I thought about pulling this post but decided to leave it because nobody really got downright rude, and I don't think any untruths were spoken. But, I'd make the comment it's a fine line between constructive criticism and shooting a stationary target.

Direct link to the Interchange
hkading@rypn.org

ORM has had to fight for their location for many years, the town grew up around them and they always seemed to be fighting NIMBYs. I don't know the inside info on fundraising and volunteering but it seems they are trying to dig themselves out of the hole they got into. The interurban equipment they have has great potential. There ain't many Ohio Interurban operating and they have three of the nicest. Shore would be nice to see somebody throw some money at the project but Ohio (government of) uses it elsewhere (read concrete). As I cruise the web, I am happy seeing the number of states interested in preserving their rail history. The history of electric railroading in Ohio is buried and not very popular. We put a cosmetic fixup on our LSE car for the USS/KOBE Lorain Centennial in 1995 and had it on display to a crowd of 12,000. People were astounded; what was it? it went where? it went how fast? what do you mean there were dirt roads and very few cars? History is slipping away as we speak!


lamontdc@adelphia.net

The last time I visited the Ohio Railway Museum was sometime in the early 60's(I think) and it was a nice musuem for the most part. In the 50's dad took us up there(about 110 miles from here) and we rode the trolley through the woods. A few years later those woods gave way to lots of housing and it was an entirely different experience. I also got to see N&W 578(4-6-2) at work on one trip up there.
In the fifties it was odd being at a railway museum and seeing Pennsy J class doubleheading out of Columbus on the line next to the ORM. Shows you how long the ORM has been around.
I have heard the place got run down, but they are making a comeback. More recently they have been sponsoring several trips per year on the Ohio Central, and in fact the first 6325 trip on Sept 22,2001. From what I have observed they were nearly all sell-outs which bodes well for raising funding for the museum. A lot of museums would love to have this opportunity to raise capitol, so the Ohio Central not only restores and operates steam, but allows sponsoring groups to benefit as well. Preservation works in many ways!
Greg Scholl

Videos and such
sales@gregschollvideo.com

Hume-

You make a very valid point and I am very sorry if I was moving this thread in an overly negative direction. My comments, as well as many others out there, came out of concern. I probably could have (and should have) rephrased my comment. On the other hand, I also could have been made much nastier comments about specific equipment in their collection, but as other have pointed out, its tough to find a collection that does have at least one neglected piece. I think much of our horror is that so much of ORM's collection is one of a kind; I'd say better than 1/3 are the only exisiting examples from their given line (Columbus, Delaware and Marion for example.

Maybe instead of criticizing, we (read me into this as well) should be trying to help this pioneer in the rail museum field get back on its feet. It would have been nice to see a representative of theirs at ARM/ TRAIN for instance; I did look around, but found none to my knowledge. We should also realize that if it wasn't for ORM's early work, we wouldn't be having this argument at all.

Hume, I met a few of the people who were at ORM in the early days, and they were as disgusted as any of us about the gradual destruction of the collection. There were those who did try to make an effort to maintain equipment, but they, from what I understood, were drowned-out by those only interested in NS steam excursions. My concern lay in the fact that if even half the money made during their relationship with the NS steam program had be funneled back into their collection, none of us would be having this conversation. With the news that one of the 6325
trips was being backed by them, I thought maybe someone should revoice this opinion in a constructive format before a similar situation developed again.

Is there anyone out there who has been volunteering at ORM lately? Could not the website, for instance, detail the extraordinary collection of equipment they have, rather than their proposed excursions?

TJG

> Although I have never been to the ORM when
> it was open, last time being around 1996,
> and the equipment I could see always looked
> atrocious, I wonder why this one museum
> seems to garner so much negative publicity.

> Is it the worst I've ever seen. Well, I've
> seen much larger collections of equipment
> assembled in one place that was as bad or
> worse as what I saw at ORM. In fact, I
> haven't been to any RR museum anywhere that
> didn't have a few skeletons in the closet,
> or even in the livingroom.

> One place I visited several years ago that
> was just absolutely terrible was Travel Town
> in LA. I am mentioning them because on my
> last visit in the Spring of 2001, they had
> made remarkable strides in improving the
> condition of their very large and very
> noteworthy collection. Not that everything
> was perfect, but overall the improvement was
> astonishing.

> Another place that ranked up there in the
> unbelievably bad category was the NW RR
> Museum in Snoqualmie. Again, I am mentioning
> them because there has recently been very
> tangible, visible progress in turning things
> around. Whatever their past failings, they
> now seem to be very competently managed and
> definitely headed in the right direction.

> And for the record, although the Age of
> Steam in Dallas has their problems, they
> also have some very outstanding success
> stories, the SF M-160 Doodlebug for one (is
> there a better example of that type of
> vehicle, aesthetically and mechanically, in
> existence). They also did an excellent job
> cosmetically restoring their GG-1.
> Generally, although their equipment is
> outside it is in a fenced area and
> relatively secure and protected. And,
> whatever the political environment at the
> AOS, I doubt anyone who visits there will be
> treated rudely. In fact, quite the contrary.

> Regardless, I get a little antsy about these
> kind of posts. I don't want to censor things
> to the point where nobody can say anything
> bad about anybody, and there is no doubt the
> ORM has been on a very long term downslide.
> But, it does seem there has been some
> progress there, and I have seen remarkable
> transformations in relatively short periods
> of time when people work together to try and
> make changes.

> It would seem to me the ORM has a location
> most RR museums would die for, and although,
> sadly, much of their collection has
> deteriorated to the point of no return, they
> still have stuff worth saving, and seem to
> be making strides in the right direction.

> I thought about pulling this post but
> decided to leave it because nobody really
> got downright rude, and I don't think any
> untruths were spoken. But, I'd make the
> comment it's a fine line between
> constructive criticism and shooting a
> stationary target.


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

I appreciate your comments TJ. And, want to make it clear that although the post makes me nervous I really didn't think it was out of line. It's a delicate balance.

I just want to be careful that the Interhcnage doesn't become a forum for bashing this place or the other. But, I also want it to be a place where the truth, good or bad, can be discussed frankly.

Railway Preservation News
hkading@rypn.org

I agree that recreational museum-bashing is unproductive and unnecessary. I don't view this thread as such, and I want to express my sincere hope that ORM continues its current movement towards a better-maintained collection and a greater attention to restoring the equipment.

I think that the main reason that ORM is viewed so negatively isn't necessarily that it is considerably worse than any other railway museum, but because it has declined from such a height. From what I know of the Snoqualmie and Dallas museums, they were never exactly national leaders in the preservation movement. ORM, though, was once one of the nation's most successful traction museums. It held a reputation for having an excellent collection of cars, for having done gorgeous restoration jobs on many of them, and for having a first-rate facility and operation at a time when many trolley museums were barely stringing wire. ORM even hosted the ARM convention a few times, if I recall correctly.

There's also the bitterness that T.J. Gaffney mentioned on the part of most of the volunteers who had done all of that restoration work. I know a few of these guys, and they strongly feel that they were cast off by museum personnel who were oriented away from the collection and towards running excursions.

ORM is certainly on its way up, apparently having hit bottom in the early 1990's. I hope that there will be enough people willing to volunteer at ORM, overcome the problems that time and weather have created, and bring the museum back to its former glory.

Frank Hicks

frank@gats.com

> I just want to be careful that the
> Interhcnage doesn't become a forum for
> bashing this place or the other. But, I also
> want it to be a place where the truth, good
> or bad, can be discussed frankly.

Agreed, of course. But there's an important and potentially constructive question here: What went wrong at ORM, and what can other museums do to make sure it doesn't happen to them? I certainly don't know the answers. Unfortunately, I suspect any answer involves criticizing individuals and/or groups, and people will always disagree. Sort of like the Civil War.

As a counterpoint, let me offer what I consider a real success story: (somebody has to accentuate the positive) the Monticello Railroad Museum in central Illinois. I was a volunteer for a few years in the early 70's at Monticello. The collection was small, unprotected, unrestored, poorly maintained. Interpretation, information, and visitor facilities were zilch. Worst of all, the operation was atrocious. The usual train was a small 0-4-0 without its saddle tank, a tender bigger than the locomotive, a coach, and a caboose. Because the loco had no air, the only brakes were the steam brakes on the engine and hand brakes on the caboose. And because the caboose's brakes were defective, we needed a brakeman at each end of the car. All this on a long, steady grade. What the *&^%# were we thinking??? Why didn't a major wreck ever occur? I shudder to think about this now.

I lost contact with the group, but twenty years later I was astounded at the improvements that had taken place. The collection is better cared for, some of it is stored inside, some excellent restoration has been done, and there are some very nice visitor displays. And the operation has been completely changed. Furthermore, Monticello is far from any major population centers (Decatur? Chambana? Springfield?). This seems to be an example of things going right. It would be good to hear from somebody who could explain what was done in this organization.

Randall Hicks

Let me add the Wanamaker Kempton and Southern to the list of small outfits making good. They have actively sold off surplus stuff and built a fine tourist railroad in a cornfield near nothing tourists would go to see in mid Pennsylvania.

BTW, one rule if you want to be a "good museum"; put up some buildings and get that stuff under cover. Pole barns go a long way towards preservation and cost much less than dealing with the cost of neglect years down the line.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> BTW, one rule if you want to be a "good
> museum"; put up some buildings and get
> that stuff under cover. Pole barns go a long
> way towards preservation and cost much less
> than dealing with the cost of neglect years
> down the line.
Dave: the other advantage of storage buildings is that they mask the "junkyard" appearance and make it look like somebody gives a hoot (or toot). Is there some magic potion you can prescribe that can be used to convince "experts" that some sort of storage is essential to preservation or dumb things like moving equipment to maintain oil on the journals, or running equipment to keep oil in the works and gaskets from drying out etc.etc.etc.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Almost every museum has made the same mistake - spend money on restoration instead of buildings. Sounds sexier. Get everything of value under cover, and, get rid of what isn't valuable to protect.

JimLundquist55@yahoo.com