Though there is generally a great deal of truth to much of what you are stating, in the end you are discrediting yourself considerably. Your pronouncements almost border on arrogance, as if having an opinion should not be allowed. I guess nobody should vote except Congressmen and certain top-level government employees, then--and even then, that's assuming THEY actually pay attention to the "facts and issues"!!!!

For your statements to bear true all the time, one would have to presume that every rail operator (or, at least in this particular case, excursion operator) is fully qualified simply by virtue of ownership.

New Orleans & Gulf Coast.
That Tacoma operation with Reading 2100.
The Northern Central dinner train.
Queen Anne's Railroad.
The Chesapeake Railroad excursion operation.
American Orient Express.
I'm sure more of us could add to such a list.
Heck, I could probably rattle off a half-dozen European post-nationalization private railroad companies in a similar "what were they thinking?" vein.

There's a major difference between uninformed speculation ("They should bring all four Reading T1's to Reading and restore them to operation!") and rational speculation. I would put raising the question of QJ's on either SL&RG or GCRR as informed speculation. Don't you think we learned more hearing why said locos are unsuitable for said lines? Don't we all come away with a better appreciation for the operations? There's absolutely nothing we're going to be able to do about the many blowhards that insist that 3751 *will* be leased to the GCRR or the like, so we just ignore them.

But, truth be told, I was privy to a conversation that started with the moral equivalent of cracker-barrel, talking-out-the-posterior speculation, and ended at midnight with one partner hanging up the phone and saying to the other, "Well, I just bought the company's assets. Ready to put your money where your mouth is?" And now Passenger Train Journal is back in publication, for better or for worse, after a ten-year hiatus.


And let the record show I said:


Response from Earl Knoob:



So, basically, I was right, according to Knoob. Pretty good for someone who doesn't have the track charts or books on the line handy, eh?

Robby Peartree opined, "With all due respect you both missed and proved the point of my post completely."


The word hath been spoken, and so endeth the thread!

I both agree and disagree with this. Steam is a draw. And a large draw. That can't be denied, and I find blanket statements such as this to be missing the truth of steam. The only reason it's still run is it is SUCH a draw. Otherwise the efficiency of diesel would have won out long ago. But there are still people willing to not only restore and operate, but ride and photograph STEAM. And their dollars speak. When 700 was here we had people travel across the Atlantic to simply photograph the engine. Tell me people don't care what pulls the train. Will they still ride? Probably. But the trick is getting them to ride in the first place.

Steam vs. diesel for tourist rides boils down to one big question that no one has tackled.

I don't think anyone will disagree that operating steam costs more mony than diesel. You must include all costs including future rebuilding of the locomotive. I think most agree that operating steam will draw riders who will not be attracted by a diesel powered ride.

The big question is will steam power attract enough additional riders to pay for the additional cost of steam? Is steam operation cost effective? If your purpose is to maximize profit (or reduce the deficit) does steam operation make sense?

I wrote the following, "They recognize that the steam locomotives have a role but that most people really do not care what locomotive pulls the train. They do give those people who want to ride on a steam train an opportunity to do so."

What this is saying is the results appear to show for Grand Canyon Railway that the ride and the other experiences they offer appear to be as important as what pulls the train. Given their annual ridership and the success of their diesel polar express trips are entertaining about 66,000 people a year. The numbers to the Grand Canyon are over 200,000 people. I would say they know their market.

If you want to ride behind a steam locomotive they make it available but you can ride the train any time of the year if you are not particular about the motive power. For them they operate steam on a periodic schedule year end and year out. How many days a year does the 700 run the same route in Montana. When a locomotive makes the same run day in and day out the density of enthusiast per day dilutes over time resulting in the majority of people riding the train not having the same passion about trains that we have. They look for many more things than just sitting in a coach and watching the locomotives run. GCR has done a lot of things that does not always pleases the rail enthusiast but its success can not be denied weather a diesel or steam locomotive is pulling the train.

Robby

The GCR has something that few other tourist or restored steam trips can offer. At the "end of the line" is another tourist attraction, one of the wonders of the world, the Grand Canyon. I'm guessing that those folks who ride the GCR to get to see the canyon could care less about the motive power. On the other hand, I've seen the canyon many times and would much rather ride for the steam experience.

I can't disagree with any of this. My wife and I rode this for the first time ever in July. I demanded to go in the summer when steam was running. She could have cared less. When any train was at the platform in Williams, I was usually there alone with my camera, maybe only one other person taking photos that didn't have their family in them...
We stayed overnight and asked to siwtch trains to go back on the earlier (also pulled by steam) trip, which we weren't even charged extra for as there was plenty of room in the obs car on either trip. So we got to ride behind # 29 each way...

"P51" -

You and I had a similar experience. Except my trip to the Grand Canyon was a year earlier (2006). I too rode behind steam on the way out. And 29 was down on her knees for part of that run. But we opted for the diesel return trip, which means I got to photograph the 29 leaving the Canyon. I also photographed the morning trip out the next day, with 4960 taking over for the 2-8-0. I hope to go back, and will make sure I ride behind steam again. But you are right too; my wife could have cared less. As for the Canyon itself, it was wonderful. In the short time we were there, we had California Condors fly over our heads and spotted a bobcat up in a tree just below the canyon rim. So another reason to go back. Next time we will spend more time in the Canyon itself.

Les

Les,
Yep! The grand canyon is one of those places everyone should try to see once in their lifetime. Unfortunately, the GCRR did not exist when I visited many years ago.

As for the Rio Grande Scenic from Almosa to la Veta, it is a GREAT ride behind steam. I rode behind 1744 in October. She works her butt off coming back up out of LaVeta. Great stack talk and a little slipping. We also had the added bonus of Oktoberfest going on in LaVeta the day we went.

From talking to some of the folks that work there the ridership is more than double when 1744 is running. (That could be due to it only running weekends) However, on my trip many riders were there due to 1744 running and not just because it was the weekend.

I think there plan is to run steam 7 days a week. If you ever get a chance you gotta ride it.

(I'll say Hi to 6907 for ya!)

Bill Houston
HODRRM
Calera, AL