Wes:
I'm not thinking about "effective administration and conservation." These are museum concepts which are of no interest to the general individual I have in mind. I'm not thinking of adding bureaucracy.

You might say I am looking at changing the perception of rail equipment ownership. We need to broaden its acceptance. Its marketing. That requires a good magazine as a start which does not focus on various tourist lines or organization issues. It must focus on ownership.
J.R

I think we are beating ourselves up unfairly by comparing apples to oranges. Ferrari's and wooden yachts were designed built and marketed as high-end consumer products, what I think today would be called "bling". They were always intended to be playtoys for the rich, and its not suprising that they still are.

The closest kind of railroad equipment that falls in that category would be the Private Car -- intended for ostentatious use by the well-to-do. And I think there was a period in the near past where there was a good market for private cars. Maybe there still is.

We should be comparing the value of, and interest in, obsolete railroad equipment to other mobile commericial equipment of similar age. We shouldn't be trying to compare locomotive prices and demand with Ferrari's but with fifty-year old dump trucks and cement mixers. They too are much easier to move from place to place than railroad rolling stock and relatively cheap to keep runnning. How much are they worth these days and how many are preserved?

We shouldn't be comparing steam locomotives to wooden yachts, but to steam tug boats and ferry boats. I don't think that preservation of commercial vessels is getting widespread public support either these days.

Actually I think we would find railroad preservation is doing fine compared to support for other commercial transport vehicles from the same time frame. I would guess, for example, that there are more preserved streetcars in Museums available to the public to ride than there are old motor buses. And there are lots of of public roads available for buses to run on.

If nostalgia for remembered personal use is the key, the most preserved commercial passenger vehicle in future transport museums should be the school bus. Lots of people spent lots of their formative years riding in one every day. Is there a school bus museum out there?

and if the stars had aligned themselves properly, would not crestline have been a fantasitc place for this?

Just wondering if you could elaborate on the relationship between the Freedom Train/Yellow Ribbon projects and preservation as it's discussed on this list -- an enterprise that attempts to maintain and contextualize that portion of American industrial history that has to do with the railroads. I'm wondering if the above two projects are relevant at all to preservation (particularly in that they appear to consume historical fabric rather than preserve it, especially issues like conversion coal to oil, conversion of historic passenger equipment to display space, etc.), or if they're more in the realm of promoting the thrill of mainline steam, more like the UP program.
Aren't they really two separate things?

JR -

Are you looking at targeting the private owner of "boomer" engines such as Flagg Coal 75, C&O 614, the Levin's E-units, etc.?

Wesley

> Are you looking at targeting the private owner of "boomer" engines
> such as Flagg Coal 75, C&O 614, the Levin's E-units, etc.?

Wes,
Not really sure what a "boomer" engine is. I tend to be thinking of the smaller steam engines, say under 90 tons although my favorites are in the under 45 ton range. Or the wood ACF coach which was available, I believe, for free. I have always had a soft spot for wooden coaches. I suppose the right guy might be found who would take on a bigger steamer or even or large E-unit. Key is making that "right guy" know that ownership is an option.

I studied the WB web site just a bit ago. Not bad at all.

J.R.

"boomer" = have engine (or car) - will travel for hire or charter, etc. as in the examples cited above instead of permanently located or collected (Strasburg, Ohio Central, IRM, etc.).

Wesley

Gaven and all'

I think the point is being missed here, that individual people do no own or collect steam locomotives. They are owned by museums or corporations rather than individuals.

As has been pointed out yachting is much more likely to attract the big money crowd.

So what needs to happen is to get our museums into play for things like TEA-21 funds or other State preservation money.

Like it or not there is in the United States a class system at play for museums.

With the most money and clout are the Art Museums, then somewhere below them are the Science Museums and at the bottom are the history museums.

And at the bottom of that are the ship, rail and airplane (the big artifact people) museums. These kinds of folks are still often seen as groun ups playing with their toys.

Do you ever hear of an Art Nut? No it is a Train Nut! That the newspapers talk about.

Big artifacts make doing anything to them cost big bucks! The cost of preservation is high and going to get higher; that is one thing that I am sure about.

Ted Miles

Ted -

Generally a true statement. But one exception I can think of right off the bat is Terry Bloom. Terry, his Dad and family, purchased derelict Smoky Mountain (ex-Little River) Railroad 4-6-2 #110 years ago. It was restored in their backyard and eventually put back into service. The family still owns it. They have never had their own rail line, but made arrangements to run over other trackage. This has led to some problems through the years, but they have persevered. They are currently running out of Coldwater, Michigan.

So there are exceptions to every rule.

Les

Les & all,
I rode with a fella on the Durango Silverton this year who is a master steam mechanic (nort sure what the correct title should be) and he also owns a steam loco that he is restoring. I forgot his name and the details of the loco, but he has had it for a few years and the 1 man project, labor of love, is progressing well according to him. He's young, single, and has the discretionary income to do it over time.

Bill

I had a great time with an "art nut" acquaintence once, after being given the standard pablum about the necessity of government subsidies for "the arts", as being an "investment" in culture and civility, edifying to the individual and tempering of violent and self absorbative impulses. From this he concluded willful, if not eager surrender to tax supports are an obligation of citizenship. He of course felt, that industrial preservation was a testament to the burgeoise...(i actually think the comrade used that term)

I simply asked "if the arts are the key to civility, such a guaranty of humanity", how do you explain the obsession of the Nazis with art?

Man, you should have seen the pause of confusion, the snort of indignation, and the inane stammering. Sort of like that Star Trek episode where Spock blows up the lead robot by telling him "everything I tell you is a lie".

Of course, this will only put a thorn in their paw...

No offense, but that is extremely niave, and insults those who have spent countless hours doing just that --- restoring steam privately. One might even say that the best steam locomotive restoration have been DONE by private owners. A few of the more recent examples:

1.) John and Barney Gramling --- Flagg Coal Company #75 is one of if not THE most traveled engine of the last few years. Restored with private funds, private time, and over ten years to boot.

2.) Scott Symans --- Viscose #6 recently restored an operated in Ohio and New York, and on the way to giving Barney and John a run for their money...

3.) Jerry Joe Jacobsen --- Restored the largest locomotive in the country to date (GTW #6325), as well as CN #1551, CPR #1293, and OC #33 with private funds. It may say OC on the tender --- but its JERRY's money funding the resto.

4.) Eureka and Palisade #4 --- a lengthy restoration with privatre funds, well traveled locomotive, ya da ya da

5.) Travis and Trevor Bloom were mentioned previously with #110, but they also did an 0-4-0 of their own --- which also runs regularly during the summer.

6.) Want to go to privately owned diesel? How about Doyle McCormack? Or Bennett Levin? or JJJ?

Fact is, private money has done quite few restos, steam locomotives ARE owned privately --- and some of the best locos out there, for that matter.

TJG

I for one am not disputing that private ownership can and does happen, quite successfully in many cases. However, just as we can rattle off excellent examples for and against publicly-funded and private museums, so could we also show good and not-so-good examples of private custodianship of locomotives/PVs/etc. Remember two other HEP-equipped PRR E8s running on the main line in their original paint and numbers long before Juniata Terminal was around? And where are they now?

The overwhelming problem remains that unless you actually literally own a railroad--not just a stretch of track, but an entire railroad with freight traffic--it's darn nigh impossible to take your "toys" out for a spin like one can with a Triumph TR3A or Ford Mustang or yacht or Cessna. Yes, exceptions exist, such as the aforementioned Juniata Terminal and PV operators. But by and large the obstacles to owning and running a railroad artifact are going to keep away 99.5% or more of the potential participants in favor of a myriad of other possibilities. Model railroading and live-steam modeling, for two.

Okay, first of all, this is way off topic, but really, what the heck are you talking about? The Nazi's vilified the artistic elite of Germany, and the best of artists of the time fled their own country to escape their tyranny. Others died in the concentration camps. Every wonder why Fritz Lang, Mies van der Rohe, Thomas Mann, and many others just happened to come to America in the 1930s?

The Nazis seized paintings by Van Gough, Picasso, Chagall, Matisse, and others from German museums and labeled their work "degenerate." Some were kept by the Nazi elite, some were sold in Switzerland, and the rest were burned.

I suppose you could be talking about the pablum produced during the Nazi era, but honestly that stuff was more propaganda then art.

Maybe you are referring to the looting of artistic treasures from the Jews and occupied France? The spoils of war have always included art. If it has value, the people with guns will take it. There is nothing new about that, and I certainly don't think it comes from any special appreciation of art unique to the Nazis.

I am certain your "friend" was struck speechless by the absurdity of your argument.

The "populist" resentment of "art nuts" was something the Nazis used in their rise to power. You should get over your resentment of well-funded cultural institutions, and figure out how to learn from their success.

-Comrade Art Nut

supporter of the arts and railroad history

The whole "art vs (any type of) preservation" is easily explained. Arts patrons are generally the well heeled and have a need to legitimize themselves, hence their interest in "art". Couple that with much better connections and you get the situation we have.

Now, if you really want to show our nation's perverse funding priorities, just look at the publically funded stadiums built to allow millionaire sports celebs to further enrich billionaire team owners. And usually, there is a sales tax break thrown in on everything sold to help out.

True story: I am a Texas Freemason-since the 1920's the Lodge operated a widows home in Arlington as a place where elderly, indigent ladies could live and get needed care. It was truly a model institution. Since it was built, we paid taxes on the property, all its improvements, buildings, and everything bought to use there.

Wellllll...........now the place is gone, sacrificed to Jerry Jones' new Cowboy Stadium...Oh, and since the Stadium is a municiple project, there are no property taxes.

What does this have to do with preservation? Simply put the average American has no problem subsidizing self absorbed millionaires as long as his/her mindless entertainment needs are met, but history is just a class most just barely passed.

I need not contrast Britain, where it seems that one could throw a rock in about any direction and hit an operating steam engine square on, and just miss another being restored (or built new). The reason? Historic preservation is publically funded, and is not simply left to the devices of a few little old ladies and dateless eccentrics. They give money to the little old ladies and the dateless eccentrics!