Okay okay. We have all voiced our opinion of what has and what should be done with PRR 1361. What many people including myself probably haven't thought of until now, (my 70 year old PRR Lover of a Father too) is that there must have been some underlying agenda that key and select people dragged their feet on the restoration whether it be money or otherwise.

On another rail forum (I will keep it anonymous but you probably know,) they are also talking about this engine with a lot more rage than they are here. They have mentioned that Reading and Northern, after announcing that steam will be brought back to their neck of the woods, are nearing completion and soon a test fire, not even a year later (granted she was down for less time than that of 1361) but it is still the same wheel type.

And down in Ringoes, NJ. the BR&W are shooting for steam some time in the early part of 2008, again she was down for even less; five or slightly more years.

If all 1361 suffered was a fracture of one of it's bearings, why rebuilt the whole darned thing if nothing else was wrong? Someone or something did not want this engine running. Okay granted the crown sheet was too thin and needed to be replaced. Why wasn't that the first thing they looked at? Upon joining this forum I noticed from most of the respected companies and members involved in steam mechanics that the boiler an all its aspects are one of the very first if not THE very first thing that gets attention so again, why wasn't that the case with 1361?

Was it absolutely necessary to keep her sidelined for so long and waste all that money and man ours when they should have gotten to the root of the problem(s) in the first place and not replicate every single stinking staybolt, rod, pin, gib, pan...etc...?

I have only recently come to believe this (my father too); I have said it before and again I will say it until someone says otherwise...there is a conspiracy here to keep her down. I know I disagreed with Mr. Rowland on keeping her as a static display article, but when he mentioned something along the lines of "if you could only have seen what I have seen", well, I started to think otherwise.

There are other issues here that the public are NOT aware of and someone has gone to GREAT lenghts to keep 1361 from running in a minimal amount of time. A rebuild such as this (which IMO) should NOT have taken that long. I have seen Scranton and while it is no Strasburg, again, it should NOT have taken that long.

I encourage everyone to investigate this further. I know I will...There are other forces at work here that we are unaware of and I intend to find out. Who's with me???!!!

If you search our forums long enough, you may find some lengthy dissertations on the actual physical condition of the 1361 as opposed to the reported condition over the years. Suffice it to say that a LOT more was at issue than just one failed bearing.

Without attempting to instigate far more slander or name-calling than has already been wasted all over the internet regarding this locomotive and its custodians and mechanics over the decades, let me suggest that, rather than a conspiracy to "keep this engine down", it's perhaps more accurate to say that if any "conspiracy" was under way concerning 1361, it was a conspiracy to make her operable in spite of any judgments to the contrary. This locomotive, more than any I have seen anywhere, represents a case of emotion, pride, and sentiment overruling what otherwise might be called better judgment.

And I say the above as someone who coughed up a hundred dollars I couldn't afford at the time towards the cause, and spent a couple afternoons contributing sweat equity.

Most of us have a very emotional tie to railroads, with very, very strong ties to some signature locomotives, including PRR 1361, SP 4449, along with some Reading and C&O steam locos…

The railfan community likes to discuss such locomotives at length, most without the knowledge or background to make accurate judgments or statements. Instead we just talk among our selves, convinced that we (collectively) know what is happening, in ways that most experienced steam mechanics would not without long inspections including significant disassembly and extensive testing. The absence of personal knowledge of what any inspection, disassembly and tests may or may not have shown do not stop us from commenting, even pontificating on what the owners and operators of such engines should have done with the locomotives in question.

On this board we try to limit our statements of fact to those based on knowledge. We generally don’t consider random statements of rumor made on other boards to be fact.

The discussion of conspiracy theory makes the hair on the back of your moderator’s neck stand up.

Lets be careful about this subject.

Understood Mr. Hess and I apologize. But I'm sure you must be, even in the slightest bit, curious to know what is REALLY going on with 1361. You have to admit. "There's something fishy in the state of Denmark..."

Just to inform our readers, last week, on Dec 5, the K4 made a short journey from the Steamtown locomotive shop to track 13 in the roundhouse. Many of her parts have been stored on this track for several years, and now the boiler, frame and tender have joined them. Some parts are still outside.

This movement was done with the knowledge of the directors at the Railroaders Memorial Museum. Steamtown shop crews performed the task to free up some space in the shop.

Wow, so at least #1361's on display again, sort of. My last two visits to Steamtown I missed the shop tour, so I still have yet to see #1361 in person.

Based on what I've read I'd summarize the story as: a poor candidate for restoration met up with several bureaucracies' worth of good intentions.

Look elsewhere for a conspiracy, please.

Wesley

So this is all just "steam and mirrors"?

MX

IMHO both moderator Hees and Mr. Mitchell make important and valid points.
This was a classic case of a locomotive being slated for restoration because of what she represented historically/geographically NOT based on her going-in physical condition. Based on what was learned after the task began in earnest she would have been one of the last candidates chosen due to her worn out condition.
Then as fate would have it the task was overseen by a series of well meaning but unqualified senior managements who had just enough steam knowledge to think they knew what they were doing when in fact they didn't, and the end result is what you see today. As posted earlier I (among others I would guess?) attempted to introduce some senior steam restoration specialists (with PROVEN track-records) to the task some years ago (2003) and was rebuffed by Altoona who instead chose to rely on an engineering company with no mainline steam experience.
In a posting on an earlier 1361 thread Superheater posted a notice of an impending Audit being done by the State of Penn. (primary source of the $ 2 million plus dollars spent to date) to determine the methodology etc. of the monies spent. Hopefully this audit will put to final rest all the issues that have surrounded this project for years regarding missing monies, missing tools etc. etc.
I must say that the silver lining here is that this can be a VERY valuable lesson for the industry if it's studied as it should be. The bottom line is that these restorations are very complex and if you're going to attempt one you MUST hire one of the handfull of PROVEN mainline steam restoration pros and let him DO THE JOB!!!!
IMHO-Ross Rowland

I for one cannot comment on conspiracy or not regarding the #1361, I have had absolutely no history with the project. I do agree with Mr. Roland that the best thing about this story is to learn from it. This is exactly what can happen and still happens all across the country, but on a much smaller scale, just not costing quite as much. All things are relative, meaning that a small museum without much money can spend the equivilent of millions of dollars on a ill thought out project, simply because the said museum doesn't have much money to spend. $10 to a homeless person may be equivilent to $1000 to most of us.

From what I have seen in a number of cases is poorly planned, poorly managed and what small amount of money available squandered. The form might change, but the cause is still the same. Arrogance, personal pride, political BS and good old fashioned {but well intentioned} emotional thinking. This has been discussed at great length in huge threads just below that have been going on for the last week or so.

I too have looked back at some of actions and thought "is this a conspiracy not to run steam"? I do not think so, it appears that way, but it is the arrogance and unwillingness of managment and shop forces to come together, work together and admit they don't have all the answers. There may be a few forces that do, but most of the time from my perspective it is a lack of willingness to admit you need help making the decisions in areas that you are not well versed, so to speak. Such as bringing in a project manager who knows what they are doing and has a proven track record, such as Strasburg, Steam Services and others who are up to speed and have a reputation that speaks for itself. After a williingness to admit that a management/shop might need professional help is of course the problem of paying for it {MONEY}. The wheels of progress get bogged down by the darndest things. What often appears as conspiracy can be linked to arrogance, pride and emotional thinking. "Thoughts do have consequences"
as Dave's verse implies. We always look at other situations and think that it is not about "us" personally or collectively, but it is. This #1361 project is a good example of how many of us in this field operate. History only repeats itself if you don't learn from it. Stove is hot, stove is hot, stove is hot, stove it hot............ John.

PS I applaud Mid-Continent for bringing in Steam Services to do the running gear on the Montreal #1, it is a giant step in the right direction, of course, without donors this could not happen.

From a part of the conspiracy to avoid conspircy theories.......

Among the requirements to carry out a successful conspiracy are:

1. maintaining all involved parties in agreement to consipire for the duration of the conspiracy

2. having the mental fortitude to engineer a complex set of circumstances to engender, then continually reinforce the conspiracy

Or, as one individual put it to me when questioned about conspiracy as an explaination of a series of inexplicable decisions in Colorado recently "They aren't smart enough to conspire sucessfully and they argue among each other too much to agree on one anyhow."

I'm not sure how smart the early decision makers were, but given the turnaround and number of involved parties since, no conspiracy would be likely to live through so many years based on #1 above.

I chalk this one up (as an uninvolved speculator) to having many chiefs who knew just enough to have good intentions, a shifting cast of indians each of whom had their own opinions and priorities, working on a politically charged reservation in a cultural arena that doesn't reward achievement as much as simply making no waves.

Conspiracy? No, at least of a deliberate nature.....but I don't think there's a single identifiable element that can be charged with the ineffective performance of the project so far either. So, things simply conspiring accidentally is a possibility we can't ignore.

dave

Dave, sorry for misquoating "ideas have consequences".

Never thought about conspiracies from that perspective, but how true. A "real" conspiracy wouldn't have a snowballs chance in hell of making it this far. Most of us don't get along well enough to make it happen that good. Cheers, John.

Last I checked the 3254 had all it's parts, in fact I see smoke wafting over the building. As will the 2317 when they get that trailing truck bearing figured out. I seem to recall the 759 is only missing a cylinder cover and jacketing...

The K4 in the roundhouse adds a little I think, makes a neat display for the time being...

I had the chance to volunteer a little bit on the K4 when it first arrived, pulling tubes and helping wrestle the throttle out on a few Saturdays is about all I can lay credit to.

I have to join the other's with the "not a conspiracy" chorus.

Fact: The engine ran towards the end of steam on the PRR where the units were less than, how should we say, "pampered".

Fact: It then got an inadequate overhaul and was placed back into service. I remember one Saturday getting dirty pulling tubes where one learned person remarked "They were lucky only the wheel bearing failed" in reference to the condition of the boiler.

Fact: In its brief second life, things were done to the locomotive that are not recommended. A "rushed" fire up on at least one occasion comes to mind.

Comparing the 1361 to the 425 is an overly simplistic assessment, like comparing apples and oranges. If anything there has been considerable political pressure, perhaps too much in fact, to get the thing running onnce more.

Now for the funny story...

I remember when the K4 first arrived on flatcars here in Scranton so many years ago. I joked to a fellow park ranger, a good friend of mine who was engaged at the time that "The K4 will be running and you'll still be a bachelor". Well I think he just celebrated his 9th anniversary and I'll be going to his three year old's birthday in a few weeks!

I think he uses that annecdote on his shop tours to this day.

Dave Crosby