Ok, this one is starting on the ragged edge, but bear with me.

The land speed record for is about 146 mph
as per
http://www.steamcar.co.uk/Challenge/Record.htm

Obviously many of the best steam locos of the day could get real close, with their load, too
so........
What is the opinion, if a "consortium" of steam and mechanical preservationalists could, using a good dose of good old school tech, a little influx of new stuff, bust that open?? It would be a great way to bring steam, history, and preservation to the fore front. Now, if instead of coal we burned something clean, (or garbage) we could wave our green flag, too

I am thinking a flat 6 or 8 cylinder powered streamlined Heisler (with steering)

only need 2 runs and have 5 miles to get there

I know, I know, too much coffee this morning has made me dilusional

and yes I am very serious

dr dodge

I have been following this challenge for quite sometime. Its interesting to say the least. In regards to steam locomotives we need to remember that significant technological development ended in the 1920's Yes such things as roller bearings did add to servicability and thus efficientcy howver the basic plant (boiler, engine) remained a very conservative design.

The same with steam power in automobiles - WITH one exception - Abner Doble. His development of uni-flow engines and highly efficient monotube steam generators not only pushed the envelope but proved to be very practicle. Ask Jay Leno about his Doble car.

I often wonder what wonders would result from a marriage of Doble tech with modern state of the art materials and electronic controls. For instance, a German company has developed what it calls the steam cell. Its basicly a block of ceramic foam like materail with millions of cells which all act as minute combustion chambers. Needless to say the thermal efficientcy is incredable. They are currently working to intergrate this technology into the home heating and auxillary power unit market.

More info on Leno's Doble here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html?page=2

Bancroft Library Doble Collection:
http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt3p30193p/

And.... I forgot these folks. Attached is a link to a YOUTUBE video. The first segment is a Doble steam car. The last is a Bessler-Doble steam plant in an airplane. Pretty cool stuff.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832495755271201264&q=STEAM+AIRPLANE&total=135&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

In regards to steam for the iron road. Doble did develope a power unit for a railcar. However, data is hard to come by. I beleive the Bancroft Collection does have some info on it.

Doble was apparently involved with the late 1930s Besler Steam Car project on the New Haven; this operated somewhat successfully on the Bridgeport-Waterbury route until about 1943.

Howard P.

We've tossed this idea around on the steam_tech Yahoo group more than once over the last few years. I've often marveled at the vast array of vehicles used in "motor sports" (everything from NASCAR to tractor pulls to swamp buggy racing) and wondered why some of that enthusiasm hasn't got transferred to steam locomotives.

I don't think you'd have to get nearly that exotic (6 cylinder controlled steering Heisler) to break the steam locomotive speed record (~127 MPH for the British streamlined 4-6-2 Mallard), and I'll bet you could beat the overall steam LSR too.

In the U.S., there were several classes of 84 inch drivered 4-6-4's which were known to exceed 120 MPH on a routine basis. At least one of those engines still exists, AT&SF 3463, which is supposedly under restoration. If it was up to me, I'd start with that engine.

First, I'd spend a lot of time "massaging" the steam circuit. I'd do something like David Wardale did on SAR #3450 in South Africa in the 1980's. Make sure the entire steam circuit from the dry pipe inlet, through the superheaters and cylinder supply pipes is amply sized. If necessary, cut off the valve chests from the cylinders and install significantly larger ones. Use large diameter light weight fabricated piston valves with multiple narrow sealing rings. Alter the valve gear as necessary to optimize valve events for high speed running. At a minimum, install a double Lempor exhaust system. Update the oil firing system based on recent work by Nigel Day and others. Of course, we can run it on biodiesel or even plain old WCO (waste cooking oil) for our green points.

Next, I'd fabricate new pistons and all new rods, made as light as practicable using current reasonably state-of-the-art materials. After that, I'd rebalance the running gear using little or no reciprocating "overbalance" weight.

Fit a streamlined casing to the engine (designed using computational flow dynamics and built out of fiberglass or carbon fiber if the budget allows) to minimize wind resistance which would be substantial at these kinds of speeds.

Finally, I'd also want somebody that knows what they're doing to do some serious analysis of the engine's stability at high speed and make alterations (if necessary) to the leading and trailing trucks based on this analysis.

I'd think an 84 inch drivered 4-6-4 modified along these lines could break 140 MPH without much trouble.

So, any recent lottery winners here or close personal friends of Bill Gates? Hey, Jay Leno is a speed nut AND he likes steam....

I don't think those speeds are possible with reciprocating steam...

Think, Steam Turbine-Electric

Where's the fun in that?

An N&W 4-8-4 with 70 inch drivers was clocked under test conditions on the Pennsy at 110 MPH. At the same rotational speed, an 84 inch drivered steamer would be running 144 MPH.

There's nothing inherent in the reciprocating arrangement that would make high speeds impossible.

Interesting question.
Let's reject, for a moment the idea of independent steering and assume some sort of guideway system (the relatively friction-less steel wheel on steel rail). The idea of a streamlined multiple-cylindered Heisler is not all that far off. The end result might look something like this: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/L ... otor1a.jpg

Or this: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/L ... /col5a.jpg

Steam-motor locomotives with a high-pressure water-tube boiler and a steam traction motor driving each truck or axle.

These two locomotives, Built by the English Sentinel Waggon Works, might have been revolutionary had they not appeared when the railroad world was on the cusp of diesel developement and the advent of a workd war. As it was, they were relegated to the dustbin of obscurity.
J

[quote="whodom"]Where's the fun in that?

An N&W 4-8-4 with 70 inch drivers was clocked under test conditions on the Pennsy at 110 MPH. At the same rotational speed, an 84 inch drivered steamer would be running 144 MPH.

There's nothing inherent in the reciprocating arrangement that would make high speeds impossible.[/quote
I was in full agreement with Hugh, and was going to suggest that very locomotive on another thread 'bout steam and high speed, so I went looking for it (ATSF 3463)....GADD!!! Is there a worse looking "preserved" locomotive anywhere? If a restoration of some kind has started, please post photos quickly....must go...feeling sick....

Dave

Somewhere in my distant past I read, possibly in one of the British rail magazines, a rather analytical article that basically attempted to prove that, insofar as standard gauge and practical, feasible technology (i.e. regular service equipment as opposed to one-off experimentals built to set a record), that 130-135 mph should be regarded as the theoretical maximum possible with steam. The limiting factor, according to this analysis, was the pure ability of the boiler to produce enough steam integrated with the ability of the running gear to transmit said power in a compromise between power and speed.

Now, if someone wanted to restore Brunel's GWR 7' 0 1/4" gauge and build something blending the best of Gresley, Lima, Chapelon, and Wardale..........

In the early 60's experts said and had theroys to prove a dragster couldn't go over a 160 or 180 in a quater mile. With the record now in the 330's, well so much for theroy's and experts

I know of no proof but it is possible
a Pennsy T1 could break 130mph.
All the elements were in placle, boiler,
valves, drivers, roller bearings.

I calculate that at 250 mph a 86 inch driver is going to have to run at a rippin' 16.29 rpm
(thats 366.67 ft/sec at the flange, yikes!)
think modern technology could make that work?

Maybe the way to go is something more like an early 8 wheeler
low center of gravity,small frontal cross section, with a nice long boiler
ok, I'll admit it, I have a spread sheet going pretty good now
and it is appearing deceivingly do-able
run a large turbo off the exhaust steam to boost the fire box to 45 psi
that drives volumetric efficiency up 300% and still gives us a nice small footprint of the whole boiler. steam pressure in the 300 psi range
(did I mention my wife works for a pressure vessel mfgr....)

after all a Viper can do it on 600 hp
heck, I bet American Viscose 6 puts out that kind of hp

I think that our biggest problem is gonna be where to run it
It'll take one loooonnnngggg country mile to stop this thing
Imagine, the spring morning shattered, as the worlds fastest tank engine cracks the duce and a quarter (again)
look kids, it's thomas' insane american cousin

ok, now I need a cold shower

dr dodge

I believe you mean 16.29 revolutions per SECOND, not per minute?

I'll remind you of the bugaboo that supposedly afflicted high-speed running of the PRR T1: At such high speeds, counterbalancing becomes crucial. It was someone else that claimed elsewhere on this forum that at such high speeds on the Altoona test plant the drivers of the T1 were bouncing off the track/rollers.

I'm absolutely certain by now that if someone were using CAD and modern mettalurgy/technology to build an all-new locomotive to break a speed record (not a practical everyday loco, just a record-breaker), that the record would fall somewhere, like on France's TGV track or on a Shinkansen line.

It still ain't gonna happen. No matter WHO wins the lottery.

There was a complaint about T1 6110's counterbalancing before it was tested on the Altoona plant. However, this was at lower speeds and was aggravated by the two engines running in-phase. This caused a resonance in the dynometer spring and made readings difficult.

After the counterbalancing was rejiggered, 6110 was tested up to 100 mph several times on the plant. There was no complaint of any sort re: drivers lifting off the rollers. An extensive series of articles in the Keystone written by Neil Burnell and published by PRRT&HS, also reveals no such complaints. These articles were based on first-person interviews of the men who actually ran them. I would tend to believe the test plant report (it exists, I've read it) and the crews who were there, rather than something I read somewhere on the internet from an unconfirmed source.

This sounds like another one of the tales that continue to surround these locomotives, most of which are exaggerated or incorrect (or mixed up with other events such slip tests on another railroad which did show lifting at the equivalent of 140?? mph).