Showmanship? Perhaps. But at least he was using the engines for what they were designed to do: run at speed hauling patronage. That is preservation in my book.


Some groups think RRing is going 5 mph in a cab unit. To me, anything below 50 is too slow! To me (and many of the future generations), RRing is a 2 mile long stack train doing 50-60+. Not some small branch line Ma & Pa thing....

As far as the website thing - that has nothing to do with RRing or preservation. Heck, I've been tossed off of RR chatrooms and sites already...

If I may for the umpteenth time play devil's advocate:

Slow branchline railroading--the peddler freight, the switcher, etc.--is just as much railroading as the big manifest freight or the express overnight passenger train. Without one, you didn't have the other (at least until the latter half of the 20th century and unit trains).

True, a passenger FP7 or a 4-8-4 at five mph is out of its intended element. So, for that matter, is a gaily painted SW900 or U25b on a passenger train. But we do what we can with what we got. Yes, I'd like to see GG1's passing on the Northeast Corridor again, but it ain't gonna happen. So knock not the "little train that could".

To answer the first point, I think guys like Kurt Bell are the lasting contribution people like Ross made to preservation. How many people do you think got into it because of the efforts he and his peers made. I would bet there are quite a few. And there are probably 100 times as many toe-dippers like me.

I have always thought of Ross as a showman, and that is a high compliment and represents something that relatively few steam operators could put forth regularly (and hardly any do today).

Showmanship sells.

The highlight (from the days I rode and chased, and as I have heard over and over from buffs and lay folk) of the Port Jervis trips was not riding in commuter cars with white-noise HVAC systems (only those in the baggae car could really hear what was going on up front, and it was glorious). The highlight was the layover, where the folks saw a turntable spin a huge steam engine. Then each trip featured BALLS TO THE WALLS runbys that stirred the whole town. These weren't photo runbys. Downtown Port Jervis sucks for photos in the early afternoon. These were demonstrations of what that big old machine was meant to do. And when you got back to Hoboken, there was Ross in his engineer garb posing for free polaroids.

Is there anything wrong with actually showing riders why the steam locomotive was so enthralling, and why steam engineers were idols in their day?

You just don't get that very much. Not to say it doesn't happen. I have seen Steamtown pull it off a few times, and I am sure the Western mainline locos have had their share of moments. And I know the Ohio Central has, I just haven't been out to see it. I am sure #765 and #261 have had moments, too.

I am not proposing beating equipment to pieces, and I am not suggesting Strasburg have 79 mph track, but there has to be a place in preservation to let the show really kick tail. Strasburg is an example, BTW, of putting on a great show at low speed.

One person who could really do it, and I mean do it right on a regular basis, was Andy Muller. Did any of you experience the standing-ovation-enducing runbys of #2102 or #425 in Leesport and Shoemakersville on the old BM&RDG? Or get dusted off the ROW by #2102 flying up the East Penn?

I can only hope now that #425 is back in service that the R&N still has the taste for letting her rip. Videos of the shakedown run are encouraging.

Showmanship. It is one thing that sells. Not the only thing, but one thing.

Rob

You don't have to lecture me on railroading - I do it for a living. Just that slow branchline railroading is what is preserved EVERYWHERE. The small town depot, the milk cars, (the whole Strasburg thing).

Ross, while some call it showmanship, allowed to engines to do what god and Lima intended. Maybe that is part of the reason historical groups are slowly dying. There is something about coming down a hill at 50mph, dynamics screaming, hauling a mile of cars. You have to admit - many younger fans like the class-1s and fast, heavy freight. This is not easy to preserve and showcase, but when we can - life is good.

Seems to me that all segments of our preservation effort are important and to a degree co-dependant. The branchline local story is every bit as important to the full story of how important railroads were to Americas growth as was the much more glamourous high speed Limited.
I must confess that when I got my start in the late 50's on the Shay at Pine Creek RR I thought that 6mph was great. But then I "graduated" to #60 on the Black River&Western and on occassion we'd let her rip up to an astounding 40mph!!! I then knew that for me, personally, it would forever be "the faster the better" and I'm there to this day.
To confirm what Mr. Davis says above I can testify that I've recieved at least 30 or so letters over the years since the Port Jervis trips from individuals who got thier first exposure to mainline steam on one of those 24 trips and have gone on to become active in our "industry".
Also seems to me that labels such as "preservation, operation,showmanship, etc.,etc. are rather meaningless. ANYTHING that's wholesome and safe that helps us lovers of railroading expand our fellowship is worthy of persuing!!
IMHO-Ross Rowland

Well, I don't know you but I am proud you are around. The only time I have seen you in person was when you went sailing by at Gauley Bridge, WV on the 614. It was great!

Thank you for what you have done. Sometimes things go right and sometime things go wrong but nobody ever gets anything done unless they have the balls to try, and possibly fail.

If you walk down the street passing out fifty dollar bills, there will be folks who will complain that it wasn't a hundred.

Thank you again for what you have done.

Ken (who is perfectly happy at six miles an hour on 56 pound rail) Riddle

I must say I think Ross has done so much for the industry. If it wasnt't for him we would have none of the Canadian pacifics he used, NKP 759, SP 4449, T&P 610, Reading 2100 & 2101, or the almighty C&O 614. Think of how many people were made fans because of these locomotives and Ross's visions. I have never met him but because of him I was turned into a fan. I grew up in Montgomery, WV and in '85 he did his ACE tests through there. I do not remember the runs because I was only 1 year old but there is a picture of me and my grandfather (who fired the 614 when it was in service on the C&O) holding me standing in front of the pilot of the 614. Ross you are a true gentleman and thank you for all you have done!! Now lets get the 614 back in C&O country........lol

The people that have the first hand memory of steam locomotives are growing fewer and farther between. The next generation demands entertainment. Therefore showmanship is all that you have to sell a steam locomotive, weather a wooden axle or mainline experience.

I know I'm rushing things, but I would like to buy an autographed copy of Mr. Rowland's autobiography.

I kind of wasn't going to pipe in on Ross & his ventures-in the past, we've really been 'round the Mulberry bush and I admittedly have expressed strong opinions that make me less than unbiased. So with that disclaimer, addressed primarily to the groupies, I proceed.

One poster ( firefighter25dfd) said something: "I must say I think Ross has done so much for the industry.” I’ve heard this or something close thousand times before, but somehow this time it prompted a question that I think should’ve been obvious. That question is: What industry?

As a general rule, an industry is comprised of a firm or firms providing a service or category of related services to a customer base that values what they receive enough to allow recovery of costs and profit that allows a return enough to justify the capital required to keep the whole thing going. Of course, if there’s no chance of a sufficient return, there’s another alternative-enough public interest to provide donated capital sufficient to maintain the firm(s) activities.

Where is there an industry in mainline steam? Last I looked, there isn’t much of an "industry", at least for mainline, public excursion steam. We can immediately disregard static museums as a different industry. Ditto for the operating museums and tourist lines-running smaller engines @ lower speeds on home rails-that’s different than mainline steam.

There are a couple of captive operations, UP & CP, but they are in house and don’t provide public excursions. The only operations that I am aware of that have been able to maintain itself, operating a significant schedule of public trips over other’s rails, over a period of years and is still going are CMStP&P 261 and SP 4449 and let me not forget PM 1225’s occasional trips.

NS gave up public excursions. SLSF 1522 sits, as does SSW 819. The attempt to run the Reading 2100 in the great Northwest went kerplunk. Even owning a railroad doesn’t allow a steady offering of public excursions, and the Reading 2102 sits. It remains to be seen how often the 425 runs after a decade long slumber. The OC has discontinued its regular trips.

That is the industry, that’s it. Its all very precarious too, one “incident” away from a sudden end. Ultimately, it’s the result of one thing- to run public excursions, you need the intense interest that’s going to shake multi C-note fares from pockets-and that intense interest resides among very few people in the population at large. For every person that says “I got into this because Ross….”, there’s a thousand that saw the “choo-choo” and were either excited for a day or kept on picking daisies. The Runbys are for foamers, the equivalent of preaching to the choir-and the very type of thing that makes risk averse management cringe.

In the end, economics trumps everything else. Yes, Ross illustrated there was a market for Steam trips and pulled off some interesting trips. As of now, he’s not at the helm of a sustained or sustainable operation. Indeed, that’s always been the downside-as soon as there’s a need for significant mechanical work-the show stops. In this day and age of enterprise risk management, the methods of the 1960’s and 1970’s won’t work.


If you want a significant contributor to the “industry”, look at the guys running sustained operations able to provide some promise that steam will run in the future. I just don’t see “preservation” as a couple high profile, high visibility trips that result in an engine that sits when the inevitable mechanical work comes due.

Ultimately, Ross’s business model is analogous to the Stanley Steamer. Fun to watch, interesting to study, but not economically viable. I’m looking to the Model T to see the big contribution.

Hi all,
I don't post much on here as much as I did in the past, but this time I am. I first met Mr. Rowland on the Reading & Northern's Minersville Coal Special in 1995, It was RBM&N 425 pulling coal hoppers on a photo special.

Mr. Muller introduce me to Mr Rowland, We were standing between CNJ.113 and the 425 in Minersville, Pa. I still remember saying Who is he? As I never heard of him before that day. Sorry Ross but it's true.

Then in 1995 when the 614 came to visit New Hope & Ivyland RR, for a bit. I thought wow! here's something to remember for all time, a large 4-8-4 sitting in New Hope, Heck The Reading Company never took the T-'s back that line, and to see 614 sitting there, was cool!

I rode the Eire Limited in 1996, it was October 19, 1996 the day it rained, and that was when the north eastern came up the cost and flooded every thing in sight.

The next day at Port Jervis, the round table looked like a huge swimming pool. I can remember seeing Mr. Rowland picking up and young boy and caring him on his shoulders, so the boy wouldn't get his feet wet.

I don't dwell on the bad things that Mr. Rowland has done in his life, because none of us are perfect, we all make mistakes. There was only one person that walked this Earth that didn't make mistakes and he is sitting at the right hand of our Lord all Mighty.

So as Jesus once quoted" The man with out sin cast the first stone" You know one by one they all left, and the only ones that were left were Jesus and the women.

Len.

My first encounter with Ross Rowland was back in 1967 on the "High Iron" trip with Nelson Blount's 4-6-2 #127 over the CNJ between Jersey City and Jim Thorpe, just before the Aldene Plan was to take effect.

It is remarkable that Ross' leadership has given us the element of main-line superpower "showmanship" - in spite of hostile economics, liability issues, and dwindling opportunities to run interesting itineraries over a number of increasingly busy main lines...

In the mid-1990's (when I was with CR) we discussed a number of possibilities for operation of the 614 - in those days we were looking for a responsible passenger agency (such as Amtrak or NJT) to cover these trips under established liability apportionment agreements. Fortunately, Bill Herkner of NJT was in a position to offer access to Ross and our (CR's) concerns regarding liability over the portion CR owned were resolved.

Ross has a proven record in steam preservation and a candid generosity with his experience (increasingly scarce as time passes), as we have come to see through his posts here.

RYPN is a unique and valuable forum that accommodates a diversity of experience and opinions.

Thank you Ross!! (and thanks to each of you posting here - especially for your respect of honest differences with others...)

Somewhere I have an 8" x 10" of Paul and myself on the rear platform of ex-CNJ observation car "Havpalm", on that first High Iron trip. I'd have to dig to locate it today. I have an original flyer from that trip, which I've offered to Ross, if he has any interest in retaining one.
Paul, what became of your ex-NYC wooden caboose?

Superheater wrote "The Runbys are for foamers, the equivalent of preaching to the choir"

Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, this line of thinking is detrimental to the industry - the tourist railroad industry.

And I take it you must not have been in Port Jervis on any of the days #614 ran.

I have heard - from non-railfans - over and over again as a volunteer and as a fellow rider that most out and back rides don't let you get to see the locomotive working. There are very few experiences where riders actually get the full impact of watching the locomotive do its thing. That is why the Port Jervis run-bys had such impact. EVERYONE was off the train, and they saw it work.

The neat thing about the Port Jervis scenario was the bleacher seats. This was a perfect way to get the average rider to sit and enjoy the locomotive and train going through its paces.

If I were a GM at a steam tourist road, I would have some trips (if not all) stop in a relatively scenic place with space to stand (or even bleachers to sit on) and have the train do a demonstration runby. Perhaps a tour guide could even narrate... have the locomotive stop by the crowd and have the crew ring the bell, blow whistle signals, etc... Let the guide give a 5 minute talk on how the engine works... Then do an impressive run-by.

You think that wouldn't add to the experience?


Rob

I am guessing that the promoters of the #614 trips to Port Jervis thought of a few things that not all operators consider.

1. The riders are in sealed window cars that will limit any on-board exposure to the steam locomotive.

2. The die-hard buffs will flock to the open car behind the engine. They are a minority of the hundreds aboard.

3. Riding in commuter cars for a few hours, then riding back will not expose the riders to the steam locomotive and make it rather pointless to pay a premium to ride in a commuter car on a regular commuter train route.

4. The answer? Put on a show. Give all the riders a chance to experience the locomotive up close. Turn it on the turntable, let it storm past the crowd (some of whom were seated in bleachers), and show it off.

5. At the end, let anyone who wants meet the engineer.


Every steam trip I ride, be it mainline or tourist, I compare to the Port Jervis experience as it was the absolute best overall demonstration of showing steam to the public that I have ever seen.

The feedback I heard from riders confirmed this, including the non-buffs I traveled with. I also heard it from the townies who after weekend #1 made a point of telling everyone not to miss the big show.

Rob