Okay, guilty as charged of sensationilism in the subject title, but it gets the point across:

Someone just sent me the following eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-Builders-P ... dZViewItem

This is one of two builder's plates from Frisco "Russian Decapod" 1630, now at the Illinois Railway Museum. The one in Russian.

Now, the seller alleges that this plate was taken from the locomotive before its preservation (if we are to believe that, during its Eagle-Picher days, 1951-1967--which really makes me wonder how all three plates survived to go to Eagle-Picher). The seller claims the current owners of the plate know about his ownership and this sale. The chap apparently is being firm about the price; I'm curious what this extremely rare (I imagine) specimen would bring from one of the rich, hard-core collectors if it were from an unpreserved Frisco Russian Dec, but being off a preserved loco I suppose its price is, shall we say, tainted.

Not addressing the IRM and this situation specifically, but..........

What approaches are available to a museum should this situation arise again (and it no doubt will)?

This is an issue that really gets to be a thorn in the side. We saw this very issue previously with builder's plates from the preserved Reading FP7's on eBay; in another situation of which I have knowledge, the location of all four cast iron station signs for one railroad station museum is supposedly known, but only one of these signs is on site, securely indoors on the wall. It literally astounds me that, even if they acquired it legally, people take pride in keeping a "trophy" item off a now-preserved loco/car/station/etc. that keeps it from being 100% complete.

On the other hand, I have to wonder if, somehow in the past or present, the museum has managed to anger or insult this chap in some manner that makes him want to spite the museum......... such as acting with a sense of "entitlement" to the item.............

In this decade I've been involved with a couple of railway museums in Africa. Nairobi and Bulawayo to be specific.

In the case of both museums, loco plates (name, number and builders) from current existing exhibits have come up for auction.

Always in England and generally from English sources.

There is no doubt that most if not all were stolen from the source.

The actual thief could not always be identified (stolen to order).

In some well publicized cases we have been able to recover the items with the help of Interpol, the English police and helpful fellow enthusiasts.

With regards to e-bay and the English auction houses, we got no help at all.

In one case I was told "if you want the item back then bid on it"

If you believe an item to be stolen, notify the local police where the item resides and follow up.

Trevor Heath
Port Orchard, Washington

"Just say No."

Don C.

Just a point of order:

No one is claiming that THIS 1630 plate was stolen. It could have been purchased from, or given by, the head of Eagle-Picher. For all we know, it was discarded and an employee got it out of a trash can.

And in the case of items from operating locos or scrap line relics, it's ALL a gray area. For all we know, some folks may have purchased the aforementioned African loco relics "honestly" from shop superintendents who weren't authorized to sell them. And are we honestly going to discuss how many steam whistles, bells, plates, etc. were "bought" with a box of cigars or a bottle of whiskey to the scrapper or shop foreman?

One GG1 plate I have handled was given to a noted railfan minister in Delaware in the 1950s by a PRR employee. Who should his son return it to?

To make things even more confusing, there are in fact "legitimate fakes" around, builders plates that are genuine and were cast or engraved by the locomotive manufacturer for use as commemorative pieces or gifts. The only visible difference between those pieces and the plates on the locomotive are that they were never bolted in place.

MX

This is the third or fourth time that this plate has been listed on ebay. The seller has a high opinion of the value of the plate. It is an unusal plate, but I have noticed over the years that the value will drop the more times an item is re-listed. It MAY also hurt that it is from a museum locomotive.

I am still lookng for the plates that were stolen from the Strasburg Railroad a few years ago. I have found plates for both museums and locomotive owners over the years. After collecting plates since 1963, you get to see and handle quite a few. There are many plates in the market from preseved locomotives. Some were removed before the locomotive went on display, others were stolen while the locomotive was on display. I have offered plates back to museums over the years that I have located. In most cases, the museum did not have any interest in working out a trade for extra items that they had in their collections that were not pertinent to their collection. In other cases, plates and other items have been offered out by people "working" in those museums. It can be a complex issue. The thieves out there give serious collectors a bad name.

Forgive my ignorance on this issue, but when you as a collector buy stolen property, do you not do so at your own risk? If the property is determined to actually be stolen, doesn't the rightful owner get the property back without having to negotiate a trade?

Chain of custody of any of these items is not able to be documented and proven in any way, the legality of them being preserved. CSI is a TV show, it is fiction.

So I am not in the mode of trying to 'steal' them back from any legitimate collecter. But it would seem to make sense to re-patriate plates of Museum locomotives in some reasonable way. As long as someone perceives a profit motive in owning or re-selling these, the practice will continue and further muddle origins of these artifacts.

Bob Kutella