Has information on these locos been on the forum?
They look very old, not many 2-2-2's were built.

http://members.aol.com/aqualieb/projectspage.html
2rivers@upstel.net

> Has information on these locos been on the
> forum?
> They look very old, not many 2-2-2's were
> built.
What the heck are they? I've never seen or heard of anything like them. I suggest putting this message on the Chaski board as well. Since I have some diving experience I would be very interested in learning about these engines; the diving world is always interested in learning the history of the artifacts they dive on. This is a rare instance when the rail community and divers can work together to rediscover a piece of history. Someone must have a lead, I've never even heard of a 2-2-2, off to research...

They look to me like they may be Norris locomotives, similiar to the Lafayette replica at the B&O museum. Definately from very early in American railroad technology, they may even be from England or somewhere like that. I can't wait to see what turns up.

Thanks, Taylor

thrush@smt-net.com

Locomotives of the 2-2-2T wheel arrangement are quite rare. The two I know of are the Cumberland Valley "Pioneer" in the railroad hall of the Smithsonian. The other is the Reading "Black Diamond" inspection loco at the Museum of Transportation, built by Baldwin in 1889. Are there any others anyone knows of?

Museum of Transportation
rdgoldfede@aol.com

Well, I checked SteamLocomotive.com , and it isnt listed under there.It'd be interesting to find more steam locomotives that no one knows about.

cookiemonster@rrmail.com

Is the Black Diamond still out rotting away or has it been fixed up? It is a shame to see how bad it has rotted when it looked perfect when the Reading donated it. How badly such a rare locomotive has been cared for over the years is why many people look down on the MOT.



tgears1@home.com

They appear to be narrow gage on the drawing as my computer reads it. very interesting - obsolete design like an old Norris but no Bury boiler.

Only 80 feet down - why don't we just pull one up?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Of course it's safe, given the support that the interested rail preservation community outside St. Louis has provided over the past many years. It had a small shed roof built over it many years ago, and later (early 1980s) a much bigger one was built over the three tracks where it sits on the center track. It has been repainted more than once, and needs to be cleaned and repainted again. Why isn't it in a building? Because we don't have any buildings. An it always amazes us how those who criticize so freely never can afford to donate even the price of a book, video, or roll of film to change the situation. There is a capital campaign being conducted now and a locomotive as small as the "Black Diamond" would be placed inside the new visitor center, if the campaign gets supported by "interested" parties.

Museum of Transportation
rdgoldfede@aol.com

1. Why have we not read about a long-range plan for getting the most critical items inside a decent building?

2. Does the MOT still have equipment rotting away stuffed in that tunnel?

3. If so why is more equipment being acquired?

It is generally accepted that the Black Diamond is a very rare bird. Your organization should have it inside in a climate-controlled building, a shed donÂ’t cut the mustard. The only other similar locomotive is safe inside a climate-controlled building. Your policy of continuing to acquire more equipment while such treasures are left out in the elements is not one of a well-run museum.

If MOT were to do something like LOAN the Black Diamond to a museum that will keep it safe indoors until such time that you can provide this rare locomotive a proper home maybe people would not look down on your organization and itÂ’s policies.

If MOT were to make a grand plan and start working toward a decent building maybe people would not look down on your organization and itÂ’s policies. So what if it will cost millions of dollars, you have to start somewhere. You need have vision and leadership and not stopgap measures like sheds and pole barns. If you are going to be a National Museum you need to act like one.

Show me you are doing more than adding more equipment and building pole barns. Show me some leadership and direction, show me policies on new equipment acquisitions, and show me a plan for a decent building and I will send you a check.

Tom Gears


tgears1@home.com

Ron,

She was the engine I loved the most when I first saw the Museum of Transport back in 1993. Neat as could be and only looked to be a bit faded and dusty. The collection you guys have is fantastic, and I'm so happy to hear of all the progress that's being made on getting the stuff under cover and restored. Pretty big task since there is so much equipment on site, and more cool pieces arriving all the time. No matter what ANYONE says, I think the museum is doing a great job and I hope to see it again sometime soon.

Thanks, Taylor

thrush@smt-net.com

> Only 80 feet down - why don't we just pull
> one up?

> Dave

My thoughts exactly Dave. Let's go get them!

Tod Engine Foundation
todengine@woh.rr.com

Whoa, wait a minute there Tom, so quick to criticize! MOT is doing an excellent job considering that few resources and staff (like most museums) are available; just check out their website for proof. MOT has a huge collection so it is only realistic to expect that a prioritized list of projects takes precedence and not everything happens overnight. Work for one year in a public transportation museum and you will understand the reality of the situation. You do the best that you can with what resources are available. Give MOT the benefit of the doubt and support their efforts. Being critical from a distance does not help the cause. Leadership, expertise, conisseurship and direction is very much in place at MOT; understand that progress does not automatically happen in one fell swoop.

> 1. Why have we not read about a long-range
> plan for getting the most critical items
> inside a decent building?

> 2. Does the MOT still have equipment rotting
> away stuffed in that tunnel?

> 3. If so why is more equipment being
> acquired?

> It is generally accepted that the Black
> Diamond is a very rare bird. Your
> organization should have it inside in a
> climate-controlled building, a shed donÂ’t
> cut the mustard. The only other similar
> locomotive is safe inside a
> climate-controlled building. Your policy of
> continuing to acquire more equipment while
> such treasures are left out in the elements
> is not one of a well-run museum.

> If MOT were to do something like LOAN the
> Black Diamond to a museum that will keep it
> safe indoors until such time that you can
> provide this rare locomotive a proper home
> maybe people would not look down on your
> organization and itÂ’s policies.

> If MOT were to make a grand plan and start
> working toward a decent building maybe
> people would not look down on your
> organization and itÂ’s policies. So what if
> it will cost millions of dollars, you have
> to start somewhere. You need have vision and
> leadership and not stopgap measures like
> sheds and pole barns. If you are going to be
> a National Museum you need to act like one.

> Show me you are doing more than adding more
> equipment and building pole barns. Show me
> some leadership and direction, show me
> policies on new equipment acquisitions, and
> show me a plan for a decent building and I
> will send you a check.

> Tom Gears

> Whoa, wait a minute there Tom, so quick to
> criticize! MOT is doing an excellent job
> considering that few resources and staff
> (like most museums) are available; just
> check out their website for proof.

Indeed, the work Molly Butterworth has done revitalizing conservation and curatorial programs at MOT has just led her to be invited to join the board of directors of ARM. Quite a vote of confidence from her peers.

MOT was a great collection that fell on hard times. I agree with Kurt--the worst of those times are now well behind them, and the current leadership is active, able and professional. MOT will be hosting ARM in 2003, and perhaps after everyone has had a chance to see the new atmosphere and achievements there more folks will be willing to let bygones be bygones.

eledbetter@rypn.org

It is easy to criticize from afar, but it is also easy for museums to acquire more equipment than they can reasonably handle. When this happens, rare equipment gets neglected and equipment not generally well regarded to some is allowed to deteriorate, hence generating much criticizem.

This is why it is important to have an acquisitions policy and be willing to work with other groups toward preserving equipment that said museum might not be able to care for. Deacquisition of equipment benefits museums that may be better able to care for it and display it in a more natural and meaningful setting and equipment could possibly go closer to the geographical area that it came from. It, also, brings museums closer together and allows them to build better relationships and promotes good will in the movement as a whole.

Stuart

Help Save the NC 87!!
gnufe@apex.net

There are 5 2-2-2T worldwide in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives". An 1898 example is preserved in Austria, and 1862 example is stored in Spain, and a 1931 example (yes, you read that right) is preserved in Poland.

The Polish example also featured variable loading the the drivers. It was built specifically for a shortline.

> Locomotives of the 2-2-2T wheel arrangement
> are quite rare. The two I know of are the
> Cumberland Valley "Pioneer" in the
> railroad hall of the Smithsonian. The other
> is the Reading "Black Diamond"
> inspection loco at the Museum of
> Transportation, built by Baldwin in 1889.
> Are there any others anyone knows of?


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net