So dismal for diesel is "unprofessional" but "foamer" for an overly enthusiastic rail buff is OK? Slang and railroading have been arm in arm
since?...a long time. I'm sure Ross Rowland has an appreciation for diesels
with respect to their place in history and the contribution they've made in the natural progression of railroad motivepower developement. Having one cut in behind a main line steamer,while nessesary at times, takes away from the whole experiance. You "pros" don't want us "regular" fans here? Too bad. This is a public site and membership per/se is not required only an obligation to follow the guidelines. While a fan I am, I'm also a preservationist as I'm involved with the restoration of a live railroad. I log on here to futher my knowledge of railroadings glorious past but too often have to endure the sniping and condescension that seems to dominate many threads. No big deal to loose me on here but how many more BobYar's and RR's do you want to cut and run? Maybe you "real" pro's should peel off and start a private site that only the "purest" can join. The above is not a flame but passion....sorry.

Amen Dan! If this is to become the tight ass, stuffed shirt forum, I think I'll just delete it from my list of favorites. Or I guess I could hang around and start signing in as James B. Bane III. Talk about pompous. I was surprised that Mr Yager and Mr. Rowland quit posting based on criticism by a handful of people, when I am sure there must be hundreds of people like myself that read the forum daily and enjoyed their posts but rarely sign in and post themselves.

even'n folks, I'm a real regular type guy that happens to have a dream job, I work on wooden coaches full time and am a trainman through out the busy part of our season......i was think'n maybe principals before personalities might be a helpful concept here on this board. we are a group of folks with a common interest that brings together many personalities that probably would not be found associating with each other in most social settings. I survive in this world by maintaining a sense of humor that keeps me humble enough most of time to avoid becoming a self-centered egomaniac.....i watch this board daily and find topics ranging from safety issues to tech topics very informative and helpful in my line of work, Railroading and railroaders have always been a very colorful lot and in preserving that aspect i would like to see all interested parties "all aboard"

Okay. Let me elaborate in a bit more detail.

This forum is NOT the back break room of the restoration shop where no one can get to. This forum is comparable to the ticket office at the front door. There have been times where I sought information on some obscure topic or locomotive on well-known Internet search engines, and a long-ago discussion on RyPN Interchange turned up as one of the top "hits" on the topic (and often turned up the info I needed).

One railroad museum with which I have worked has had to put up a large sign in the main ticket office, not visible to patrons but visible to all who work there, that basically says "Thou shalt NOT talk in a disparaging manner about other railroad operations or museums--especially [the one with which we connect]!" Apparently some loose-lipped big-mouth(s) cost this operation some MAJOR goodwill in the form of free or reduced-cost services that was rescinded after a certain party visited unannounced and heard disparaging commentary. If it happened to them, it can happen to you. Have you heard how employers are "Googling" prospective employees to find out about them? It can happen to your restoration group, too.

There are plenty of places online for someone to whine endlessly about the toilets (or lack thereof) on their locomotives, the paint scheme that a locomotive owner paints his or her locomotive in, that diesels replaced their favorite steam locomotives, etc. This doesn't need to be one of them. Bluntly put, such behavior is immature and "unprofessional". It lumps RyPN in the same pool as those websites where semi-literate folks claim major railroads intentionally defer maintenance and wreck trains left and right, demand that NS reinstate the long-gone steam program, and carry on running debates on what locomotives were best based on the sounds they made. There's a difference between noting that Norfolk Southern is unlikely to move a locomotive without rebuilt bearings a mile on their lines in 2008 and calling them names because that loco rolled on "the same track" sixty years earlier "and it can do so now," to create a hopefully-fictitious example.

Mind you, there is certainly a role for constructive and level-headed discussion and even outright debate here. There's certainly a place for discussion of the pros and cons of a government-funded museum/project versus one with private funding, or discerning what lessons can be learned from the protracted and perhaps dysfunctional restoration of PRR 1361, or what went wrong with Golden Pacific, or why the Grand Canyon runs diesel most of the year, in order that we all can learn from mistakes and improve upon the avocation as a whole. One example: the video of a photographer being struck by a light engine posted here a mere short while ago. While commenters on YouTube and elsewhere crudely call the struck individual a "Darwin Award candidate," the folks here--correctly, in my view--had some sharp criticism of the railroad crews depicted, and I've no doubt that some locations are rethinking their safety protocols as a result, in hopes of avoiding a repeat of this on their own properties. The discussion of "how can we prevent this?" is an example of what SHOULD separate this forum from the likes of "RailFoamerForums" or the like.

Rumors and unsubstantiated reports? A delicate issue, one worthy of discussion. On the one hand, one person's hard-and-firm "facts" ("I've seen the invoices/waybills/blueprints/held the plate in my hands!!") are another person's "rumors" and "innuendo", most likely depending on "whose ox is being gored". I'm sure, as one historical example, that Grand Trunk Western Pacific 5629 was safely stored in Chicago, and that it was only a "rumor" that Dick Jensen and Metra were at odds over the storage arrangements--until the torches cut apart 5629 one fateful day. Was it only an ugly rumor that the chop-nose RS1 was available for free, and that it was a gutted shell--or would that rumor have ultimately saved it or its parts? Reasonably informed speculation is one thing, but at the same time we should be wary of getting too detailed about private financial matters. Saying that a noted dome car has been advertised for sale at $149K, and photos and details are at such-and-such website, are one thing; claiming that the railroad is liquidating because the owner is going through a messy divorce or bankruptcy is another.

One last note: In general, I attempt to type any and every post here as if it was going to be read by someone that stood a chance of actually effecting a positive outcome on a project--a generous benefactor, a potential purchaser, a donor of crane/trailer services, etc. If everyone were to take that attitude, we'd all be a lot better off.

One potentially practical suggestion for a future RyPN model: A "FAQ" section where endlessly-rehashed topics--1361, the D&H Baldwin Sharks, the Alco PAs, "where is [steam loco] today?", etc.--can be neatly summarized in edited,, non-inflammatory prose in pitiful hopes of heading off at least some of the round-and-round-we-go-and-nothing-gets-anywhere debates.

Well put JB.

Dan F. Denham II

A.K.A dan

damn right J. B. Bane!

K. Elwood Riddle III

Elwood?

Call me at your earliest convenience please, Ken.

dave (dwight) my father liked Eisenhower

Is it me or is RYPN become humorless and anal lately or is it just one or two members? I grew up in a railroad family (operating folks) and slang, etc, as well as practial jokes, crude humor and much more were a way of life on the railroad.
I didn't work for the railroad as they were cutting back in the late '50s when I tried to hire out. Spent three years in the Army (just like the railroad except you wore a green uniform) and spent my life in the machine tool trade, working from machinist through tool and die maker into management before retiring. Same down to earth conditions.
Involved heavily into the 1522 restoration and operation from start to finish. Same down to earth conditions, plus interacting with the down to earth conditions on the mainline railroads we ran on.
Frankly, if we have to guard every word we post here for fear of alarming the elitists and the PC police, then I have misunderstood the mission of RYPN.
I've gathered a lot of good infomation here, but sometimes the pompous egotistical attitudes of a few people spoil it.
That's just my opinion and I'm probably wrong or at the least politically incorrect.

[quote="That's just my opinion and I'm probably wrong or at the least politically incorrect.[/quote]

As the moderator, I would hope you were never wrong for expressing an honest opinion here.

We are diverse, from museum "professionals" to (greasy) hands on workers, to the folks in the conductor's uniform punching tickets and talking on the PA.

In most of the museums I have been involved in, there is some tension between each of these groups... Some museums handle it better than others.

Somehow, we need to work together to get all the jobs done.

Randy

Less posts about whining and conjecture and more talking about what is actually going on in the restoration world.

I love hearing about what people are working on and I loathe people coming up with hypothetical conspiracy theories.

For the record:

When you operate a business or other enterprise that invites financial business from the public--be it paid admission, streetcar rides, mainline train trips, or donations to a non-profit towards restoration--then, just like a restaurant/hotel/newspaper/etc., you are subject to criticism from patrons, customers, donors, and even the general public. Furthermore, when you ask for the goodwill of the public or private entities by way of donations, services, favors, or other considerations, you set the bar higher once again--you are operating with a degree of public trust which should not be misused or abused, and by association you are also representing other rail preservationists/history groups/etc.

Objective and subjective criticism is bound to occur. It's up to the discerning public to determine whether the criticisms are valid. Saying a pizzeria's pizza tastes terrible might be fair; claiming the place is terrible because they don't give pony rides is unjustified unless the place actually advertises said pony rides with pizzas.

About the closest to an "attack" I find in my post is calling the restoration of 1361 "protracted and perhaps dysfunctional"--and anyone who has had any involvement in that project (as my $200 or so back in 1986 did) can tell you, that's perhaps the kindest words one can come up with while still being fundamentally honest. The project has gone on for so long with so many people actually involved that there's not even a brush broad enough for me to malign every party that had a hand in the troubles from the time 1361 rolled back into Altoona in 1985. That is in no way the fault of the current administration of the Museum or any one person or group that has ever done anything with/to that loco, and I wish them the best with their current situation.

No, a "personal attack" is saying something to the effect of "the mechanics at PD&Q Railroad are a bunch of morons that can't keep their locos from blowing up or catching fire", or "Mr. PV Owner is a traitor for not painting his car in original PJ&B colors" or "the museum administration are a bunch of crooks that should never touch a piece of railroad equipment".

Unfortunately, however, some operations are so small-scale that criticism does boil down to one person or family, rather than a shareholder board or corporation. And other operations, for better or worse, have become hopelessly identified with the actions or business of a particular individual, fairly or no. Examples: R.J. Corman's self-named rail operations and purchase of a Chinese steamer, Doyle McCormack's Alco PA project, Bennett Levin's PRR business car and E8s, and a great number of the private varnish operating out there. And there we get into the huge debate of whether or not ownership bears with it responsibilities or obligations related to history, and there's enough debate on that elsewhere. I will further submit that any individual with the wherewithal and the desire to buy PVs/locomotives/railroads has, by definition, enough gumption or body parts to simply ignore or dismiss any unwarranted criticism ("buy your own damned diesel and paint it whatever you want to!").

Is the fate of 1361 "our" business? Yes; there's tax monies in it; there's private donations that were solicited; and the Museum is a non-profit. Are Bennett Levin's E8's "our" business? Funny, I don't remember him asking for donations from the NRHS, PRRT&HS, etc. for the paint.........

And moderators, if I'm wrong, and we should all be joining hands around the campfire singing "Kumbaya," well, you all know how to get a hold of me. <:-)

Alexander D. Mitchell IV,

Do you ever post a short statement or response? Oh well, I respect your right to say whatever you wish. I have already given my response. I think I understand what you are up to now. Provoke non-useful discussion. How about steering it to some technical and useful topic? Like how many wheels does a GP39-2 have? (big smiley face here. How does one do that on this phorum?) Ya gotta love the diversity on railroad forums!

dan

A.K.A. Dan F. Denham II

Randy,

Great response. Langrage? At first I thought it was a typo, no, maybe a twist on language. So, I looked it up and it is an old word defined as: "A type of shot consisting of scrap iron loaded into a case and formerly used in naval warfare to damage sails and rigging."

Regarding your comments: "In most of the museums I have been involved in, there is some tension between each of these groups... Some museums handle it better than others. " I suppose that has something to do with organization size. Things tend to get more formal the larger an organization is.

In comparison, I suppose larger museums may be organized such that the Brakemen, Conductors and cab crews throw langrage at each other. I don't know that for certain, but I suspect it can happen. Smaller organizations tend to cooperate more and share resonsibilities. Without this sharing, they could not remain viable. Case in point, as everyone knows by now, SVRy is all volunteer with only one full time employee. It is my job (volunteer job) to make certain all crew positions are filled each time the train goes out. Volunteers signup in the spring for the positions that want. However, as Trainmaster I make certain all the critical positions are filled first on a first come basis. A top notch Engineer may find himself as Rear Brakeman on occasion, or as Conductor. It is humbling for sure, but it keeps everyone's perspective the same. We operate best if we understand what it is like in the other person's shoes. Our rules require everyone to fill all positions for which they are qualified, at least once per year.

If you come around McEwen and stand and watch restoration, or construction or whatever, for very long you are liable to find yourself presented with a tool and a task to perform. No watching through glass here.

dan

If you want complex and difficult problems and solution proposals reduced to sound bites, you'll find plenty of that from the various presidential candidates running for party nomination right now, as well as a lot of other internet forums on politics, railroading, etc. An actual discussion takes more words.

Late answer to your question:



Actually, no, that's not OK either, IMO. We might groan and roll our eyes behind their backs and in private, but let's not encourage the stereotype.