Has anyone out there used any type of laminated beams to replace car sills? It's been a subject of debate around here lately. My fear is the beam would begin to delaminate at the bottom of the mortises and fail.

We are going to stick with "real" wood for this job, so this is just a topic for discussion.

Paul

http://www.stuhrmuseum.org
pfdx@aol.com

> Has anyone out there used any type of
> laminated beams to replace car sills? It's
> been a subject of debate around here lately.
> My fear is the beam would begin to
> delaminate at the bottom of the mortises and
> fail.

I believe the people working on Yosemite Valley car #330 have used some for replacing parts of the side sills. You might try to contact them.



YV 330 Website

Paul,

One of my favorite sayings: "They don't make trees like they used to." Lumber we get today is nothing like that available say before WWII. I dropped a 12" x 12" x about 10' timber approx. one foot off the forks on the forklift while we were re-decking our turntable. I was moving about 5 mph. It broke like a matchstick, there was a collection of knots in one location.

I have not used laminated lumber for exterior uses, was told that you shouldn't have it protruding out of a building, as the climatic differences (inside v. outside) would cause it to delaminate.

We did use engineered lumber for the 20' long window sills in our roundhouse, but the stranded type.. they cut the wood in to about pencil diameter strands, orient them in the long direction of the piece to be made, saturate the whole with epoxy, and compress and cure with heat. I would not be afraid to use this stuff anywhere, it is much stronger than todays's "real" wood. It also does not twist/warp/check/split etc.
I believe Dave Lathrop has laminated lumber on site for car sills, I can't imagine they would delaminate if glued up properly with waterproof glue.

Rudd

A few years back, National Geographic did a spread on the rebuilding of "Old Ironsides". As part of the restoration they reinstalled huge knees and hull bracing that had been removed years ago. Since the requisite live oak knees were no longer available they resorted to laminations. The article is a wonderful example of a well thought restoration/preservation on a large scale.

Yes we have lost the old first growth timber and are left with fourth and fifth growth stuff. If you compare some old pine (we obtained some 2x15x16 from an old fairground building) with the growth rings 1/8" apart to new "farmed" pine with the growth rings 3/8" to 1/2" apart you don't wonder at the loss. Also remember car builders had their own lumber agents and mills. Carefully selected lumber was air dried for 5-10 years and then reselected for specific construction purposes. Its a long way from your local lumber yard.



lamontdc@adelphia.net

Yes I did paul. It was easy to cut stepped notches into the good sections of sill and glue / screw in new sticks, gradually building up (with staggered joints) to the full width of the sills. I have also used this technique to replace rotted sills on old post and beam houses.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

We have used some engineered lumber for our former C&GT combine. Most of its use was in replacing a few cross beam in the flooring of the car. In addition, I am a firm believer in trying to maintain as much original wood as possible (including framing), and find that paring engineered wood with strong older growth is a very suitable alternative. I will try and get some shots over to anyone interested, if they would send me their email.

Thanks,

TJG

> Yes we have lost the old first growth timber
> and are left with fourth and fifth growth
> stuff. If you compare some old pine (we
> obtained some 2x15x16 from an old fairground
> building) with the growth rings 1/8"
> apart to new "farmed" pine with
> the growth rings 3/8" to 1/2"
> apart you don't wonder at the loss. Also
> remember car builders had their own lumber
> agents and mills. Carefully selected lumber
> was air dried for 5-10 years and then
> reselected for specific construction
> purposes. Its a long way from your local
> lumber yard.


Buckeye Central Scenic Railroad
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

All of the above concerns and facts are true:
new growth does not equal old growth
Engineered lumber is stronger than "real" wood
Glues and adheasives are better now than ever.

My concern is how well it will withstand
the flex and twisting of being in service. One senerio is if you have a mortise through the laminations and the bottom is anywhere close to a seam will it cause a crack to start?

Anybody out there have a car in service with engineered side sills?

Paul



http://www.stuhrmuseum.org
pfdx@aol.com

> Has anyone out there used any type of
> laminated beams to replace car sills? It's
> been a subject of debate around here lately.
> My fear is the beam would begin to
> delaminate at the bottom of the mortises and
> fail.

> We are going to stick with "real"
> wood for this job, so this is just a topic
> for discussion.

> Paul
Why not just go to a small "Idependant" sawmill opperation and get some White oak sawed out to the size you need? the "old timers" allways used it, for anything that required a wood that would hold up to the elements. its durable, extremely strong, and holds up's very well.I have"rewooded" a number a small sawmills with it, along with numurous pieces of horse drawn logging sleds.

Randyja1@aol.com

> Why not just go to a small
> "Idependant" sawmill opperation
> and get some White oak sawed out to the size
> you need? the "old timers" allways
> used it, for anything that required a wood
> that would hold up to the elements. its
> durable, extremely strong, and holds up's
> very well.I have"rewooded" a
> number a small sawmills with it, along with
> numurous pieces of horse drawn logging
> sleds.

I agree completely that small mill can produce the majority of lumber that one needs to restore a car. The car sills that we are replacing are 5"x7"x40feet. Very few mills can handle a log that sized. Then there is the challenge of finding the log.

Paul


Stuhr Museum
pfdx@aol.com

You are right about finding, cutting, drying and handling a piece that size. One source of help for what is available is someone that builds post and beam houses. These guys are familar with "big" pieces of lumber.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> I agree completely that small mill can
> produce the majority of lumber that one
> needs to restore a car. The car sills that
> we are replacing are 5"x7"x40feet.
> Very few mills can handle a log that sized.
> Then there is the challenge of finding the
> log.

> Paul
hi paul, we have a local mill here that saw's 60 foot timbers on a regualar basis, myself being involved in the timber industry, i know that tree's like that are still avalible, and with white oak being considered a "pallet wood" the price is allways resonable. good luck, randy

Randyja1@aol.com