I will soon be working on a 1949 P-S built 10-6 sleeper (Southern Ry "Flint River") and have noticed that some of the stainless steel sheathing has apparently released from the sides. It seems to be just the narrow filler strips that have released, and only in a few places, but I'm concerned with water infiltrating behind the stainless and causing further corrosion problems.

Can anyone point me to a good resource on P-S construction techniques, specifically the attachment of the stainless sheathing to the sides and how to remove it for evaluation of the carbon steel beneath? Any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve,

The former Southern Pacific standard (used by Amtrak) for dealing with rotten PS carbodies was reprinted by TRAIN in Passenger-Car Maintenance Instructions Vol II Carbodies, which may be out of print. I am on the road at the moment, but I may be able to scan that section for you. We cleaned up and published Vol I Running Gear a few years ago as a .pdf; but it will take a lot of effort not available at the moment to clean up and properly .pdf Vol II.

Steve Zuiderveen

Most, if not all of the ex-SOU PS 1949 built 10-6 sleepers were extensively rebuilt at one of the Southern car shops (circa early 1960's?) by removing the fluting, removing the as-built CorTen flat side sheets that were orginally welded to the car structure, re-siding the car by welding on flat stainless steel side sheets, and then re-installing the fluting to retain the as-built appearance of the car. These rebuilds seem to have been of a fairly high quality, so most of these cars that still exist don't have nearly the same level of deterioration behind the fluting that we normally associate with pre-1954 PS steel framed stainless-sheathed cars. Sometimes the fluting itself may come loose due to steel or aluminum fasteners being used to attach the fluting instead of stainless fasteners, but this does not mean there are structural problems behind the fluting.

As long as the individual fluted sections are spaced properly, the "snap in" strips should normally stay in place unless they have been bent or damaged at some point.

I'm kind of curious about this, too. SCRM has SOU coach #800 which has lost a good bit of its sheathing. The siding was stored in Rion until about 18 months ago when it disappeared, presumably to scrap scavengers.

One of our members talked with a retired carman from Hayne Shops a few years back. He had nothing nice to say about the 1949 PS cars. He reported that when any of those (expletive deleted) cars came in, the shop forces would remove the sheathing and send it through rollers to get the dents out, then start welding patches into the car's steel framing. The gentleman's comment was that the frames of those cars was composed mostly of patches on top of patches.

Our coach is in pretty good shape inside and is largely complete. A number of parts have been scavenged from it for other cars, including the brake valves. It has at least one flange that's razor sharp. I've been told that the floor is badly rotted and ready to fall down on the trucks. I've also been told that this last report is BS. Personally, I'd like to replace the missing siding and put the car in our display train if at all possible.

The carman is right there were problems with all of the PS built cars on Southern. The first group were the 1941 cars (coaches (like the 800), dining cars, dorm coaches, obs and baggage cars)which were built for the Tennessean and most have not survived. Most, if not all of these cars had the problem of the sides coming loose. They were largely retired in the mid to late 1960's as passenger service wound down on the Southern and the remaining needs could be serviced by Budd and ACF cars built in 1949.

The sleepers built in 1949 by PS were the second group (there were no Budd or ACF sleepers). The 10-6 River series cars, 14-4 Valley series and Crescent Series Bedroom Lounge cars all had the same problem but the Southern recognized they would require rebuilding if they were to continue in service. The 14-4's were not a particularly useful configuration so they did not receive the treatment and were retired at the advent of Amtrak. the 10-6s received the new stainless side walls with the fluting replaced on the outside. There have been six of these cars in Chattanooga at various times and all of them have had solid sides, even two that came to use with no windows and other water issues.

We have seen some of the clips come loss from the "inner" side but they can be reattached relatively easily.

Tim Andrews
Chattanooga, TN

Has anyone tried to replace the corrugated stainless sheathing on one of the cars which received SP's flat stainless during rebuilding?

Is the corrugated material available? PLA (aka Niles Canyon Railway) is in the process of purchasing a former SP "Daylight" articulated coach from the Golden Gate Railroad Museum, and is reviewing restoration options. In the short term work is likely to be limited to mechanical and running repairs, and cleaning and repainting the interior to make the car presentable and usable.

It is not clear if reinstalling the corrugated stainless is a reasonable option.

Try these folks.


http://www.berridge.com/curvsdec.htm

Get in touch with Ted Anderson at IRM -- with any luck, the Pullman construction drawings are on file for your car, and will answer most, if not all of your questions.
(You can PM Ted from here on the List - username "Ted Anderson")

Anyone who owns any Pullman, Standard Steel or ACF cars should touch base with Ted. We recently received from IRM the complete
Specifications and Drawing Lists for our 10/6 "City of Lima", and I was amazed at the scope of information listed there. (I'm still going through the stack of information working up a "wish list" order!)

http://www.irm.org/history/pullmanlibrary.html

Key information Ted will need is the Lot and Plan numbers for the car; I highly recommend Tom Madden's database if you aren't certain of your car's data:

http://home.att.net/~pullmanproject/

Best Regards,
John Isaksen, Secretary
Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society

BNSF had the dies made and purchased new PS fluting and applied it to a few smoothside cars ten years ago. Snoqualmie Pass was former ATSF Steam Generator 138 formerly owned by myself and Mike Castellano and it got this treatment after BNSF got it back. Does anyone have any contacts with the Topeka Shops folks that might know if the dies and contractor are still available?



Steve Zuiderveen

I understand that Pullman Standard used different styles of corrugations pre-WWII and post-WWII. Anyone have information showing the difference?

BNSF does still have the dies and I think they roll the stainless in their own shop. They do not do outside work.

The BNSF has had new PS/ACF style fluting (the two carbuilders used essentially the same stainless fluting) made in the last 10 years or so for their Business Car fleet but they do not "roll their own" at the Topeka Shops. The work was contracted out to a company that does roll forming. The new fluting was then shipped to Topeka on an 89' flat car.

Steve,

Thanks for the offer, and I would appreciate a pdf copy of it very much. Sorry I missed you when you were down this way recently. I understand from Lee that welding is an appropriate fix.

I've been away for a few days and wanted to thank everyone for your responses. Good insight...excellent info. Thanks. I have been in touch with Ted, and there are supposed to be quite a good number of drawings and specifications for the River-series cars. As soon as I get the agreement signed and the check sent we should be on the way.

Before we tear into it, are appropriate fasteners available or is that something we will be looking at to reproduce or modify a current design?