I found the last two paragraphs of this story especially interesting.

"Today, heritage trains are a booming tourist attraction.

According to UK Heritage Railways, there are 108 railways in the UK and the Republic of Ireland, receiving a total of six million visitors and generating an income of £50m in 2005."

How does North America look in comparison?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7238506.stm

I’ve been watching this post for a few days waiting for someone to reply. I’ll jump in the deep end on this one and quote myself from an earlier posting.

“Railway preservation is no longer a movement of dedicated railway enthusiasts; it is a big and growing industry and a key factor in tourism programmes in many areas. (My emphasis) From the Great Little Trains of Wales which feed hundreds of thousands of visitors into the remoter and lovelier parts of the Principality to busy commuter lines such as the Paignton & Dartmouth Railway, so called Heritage Railways are thriving and thrusting in all directions.

This page sets out little known facts on the strength of the industry which is keen to co-operate with other organisations for filming and PR work, movement of freight and special traffic, hospitality and simple days out. Special catering arrangements, from neo banquets to cream teas, are available on the trains of many railways. Heavy engineering workshops are available for outside work and the railways themselves are often able to provide facilities for main line manufacturers and operators for tasks and tests which would be impossible or at least inconvenient on the main system. The Heritage Railway Association promotes its members and ensures the safety of all its operations.

Secondly get a load of this:
Note how they are going to DOUBLE their route miles. Also get check out the facts and figures on ridership and dollars. How do we get this type of information in the US?

There are 108 Operating Railways and 60 Steam Centres
operating throughout the UK and Eire.
Total route mileage is 384 miles with 279 stations.
This is greater than the London Underground system
and would exceed the distance between London and Glasgow.

New railways & planned extensions to existing
railways could increase this total to 600 miles.
During 2002, heritage railways received 5.4 million visitors of whom 4.6 million rode on our trains.

This resulted in 12 million passenger journeys and 1.7 million passenger train miles.

Heritage railways earned 39 million pounds, 60% of this being from trains journeys, 15% from catering,14% from shops and the remaining 11% mainly from workshops and charter trains.

Neither ARM or TRAIN collect this information. To my knowledge there is no clearing house of information in the US on heritage railroading.

Jim Wrinn - If you still need topics for the TRAIN Convention here's one, "How do we catch up with our British cousins."

I have already put on my asbestos suit, flak vest, and helmet.

I think this subject has been kicked around ad nauseum here. But there are at least several main themes:

1. The UK is a lot smaller than the US. People live closer together. Even the "original" railways were much more regionalized than here. In other words, the "historical fabric" runs deeper. It's much easier to organize a "grass roots" movement in a small town than in a county or a state.

2. History is "valued" more in the UK. That "value" is usually passed from parent to child as part of the culture.

3. The U.S. rail system was never "nationalized" to the extent it was in the UK, except perhaps to remove the obligation to provide passenger service to the American public. That may have removed a lot of pride and maybe power from the tradiitonal private rail companies in the UK.

4. Tying in to #2 and#3, there can't be the competing volume of freight volume in the UK,so I'm guessing that there is less competition for the rail. There must be a more "congenial" relationship between the British equivalents of "Class 1's" and the "Heritage" operations.

Just my $.02.

Scott

Scott,

I agree with your points. And yes, it has been motioned ad nauseum. But if we want to reach a national audience, we need basic data that to my knowledge is unavailable.

1. How many miles of railroad do heritage railroads operate on?
2. How many heritage railroads are under the FRA? How many are insular?
3. How many passengers are carried on heritage railroads each year?
4. How much revenue do the heritage railroads generate annually?

If we are going to even attempt to emulate our British cousins we need this basic information.



BTW no protection necessary, these are issues we need to address.

Mark,

I think collecting these statistics is a very good start. I would also suggest that stat are collected for museums. I suppose the distinction is a little difficult in cases like the Nevada Northern which crosses the line, and then there are museums with occasional operations like the Colorado Railroad Museum.

Glen

Perhaps members of TRAIN should talk to their equivalent European/English counterparts and exchange ideas?

http://www.fedecrail.org/

One thing you won't be able to compare, is the effect of the differences in UK/US civil litigation. In Britain, they have a system known as "loser pays" that ensures that individuals ensure their case has merit. We have a tort bar that's never met an incident that they didn't find actionable and as a result, the mere threat of a lawsuit can result in "go away" money.

I distinctly remember reading that a major consideration in the cessation of public excursions by the STLSTA with Frisco 1522 was the enormous growth in liability insurance premiums.

TRAIN and ARM could survey their membership to collect this information. Wikipedia has a list of US Heritage Railways here (I can not vouch for its completeness): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_he ... ted_States

If the listed railway is in blue, there is an article on it, if it is in red, there is none.

I would like to try to add to Scott's points above, but I must confess that I am not an expert on the subject of the UK operations.

England is more densely populated than much of the United States, but also does not have as much suburban sprawl. I would expect that UK heritage lines with decent rural scenery would not be too far away from their customers. How many US heritage railways are accessible by public transit? Many in the US are remote, and those that are not, frequently do not offer a scenic ride.

The UK lines probably provide a superior passenger experience with complete amenities and a well-designed and authentic environment.

The UK lines have professional management.

I know remote. It is a good/bad thing. The Nevada Northern still exists today because it is remote. That's the good thing. But the Nevada Northern will never attract hundreds of thousands tourists.

But with proper marketing we do attract people. We carried over 3,000 riders during our Polar Expresses. That number isn't all that impressive until you realize 90% of the total drove 480 to 600 miles round trip to ride. And the Las Vegas folks don't know snow.

And its more than scenary, its about outreach. We need to justify our existance way beyond just offering a train ride.

Again, going to my original posting, if we knew what we had to offer (as a group) and worked together, our future would look brighter.

Mark, I would say in your case, three (or so) out of four is pretty good, The NN has terrific scenery, one of the most authentic environments out there, and professional management. I think these factors do a lot to overcome the remoteness. If only you could get them to shut down I-80.

A non-fan friend of mine recently happened upon Ely (almost by accident), and was amazed by the Nevada Northern. He and his son spent several unscheduled hours there.

There is probably some room for improvement with passenger amenities, but it has been a while since I made it out your way. Bathrooms? Snack vending machines? Walking tour? Interpretive signs around the yard? If the National Park Service were to take over, what would be some of the first things they'd do? -This is probably a touchy hypothetical question, but I think we can give the NPS credit for maintaining old buildings and providing for their visitors with somewhat limited resources.

It might be interesting to include Australia and New Zealand in the mix of comparison. Both are significantly more "English" than the US, but NZ is a smaller island nation like England, and Australia a large continental nation with a geographic imperative like the US. We all share a common colonial cultural heritage including railways, but have developed interest in preserving and interpreting that history differently.

Getting a good bunch of us together to explore it would probably require months of international touring and a lot of formal presentation followed by even more informal interchanges to truly grasp the similarities and differences in a really meaningful way, and who can afford it?

I tried to do something in a much smaller way a few years ago, but it never got off the ground - starting an exchange program in which preserved railroad staff would do international exchanges - say, a steam mechanic from the Ffestiniog would go and work at D&S for 3 months, while a D&S mechanic would go work at Ffestiniog in exchange. I learned a great deal in just the few days I was permitted to volunteer while visiting down under and in the UK, and can only imagine the value of what a more intensive program might teach. Wages would not be any different, the only additional costs involved would be air fare and housing so it might be more possible economically.

dave

There is always room for improvement. The points you raise are very valid and they take money and time to address. We just finished our new bathrooms!!! We converted the old boiler building next to the depot. We kept the stacks on the building, and brought another bathroom on line. We don’t have snack machine but snacks are now available at the gift shop.

And walking tours are available after excursion train rides. Next up is a walking tour booklet. (It’s been on the list for years.) And you’re right we are lacking on interpretive signage. Painfully slow progress is being made to address this issue.

But it all takes money and that is the hardest balancing act. Do you do restrooms or repair a locomotive. In the past few years we have spent almost a million dollars on building repairs. And that just scratched the surface.

In regards to the NPS, they do a great job, but they are restricted by budgets and politics. I think we have the best of both worlds here, a mix of public and private.

We did that last summer. We had a person from an Australian railroad museum come here for the summer. We haven’t sent anyone there yet. It was a very interesting experience for both of us.

We also had a volunteer from a British museum stay here for a week volunteering that too was a very interesting experience.

A formal program would be an immense help. I know we look longingly at what the Brits have accomplished, but (surprise) they also look longingly at what we have accomplished. I think it is a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence. There is a bunch of things we could learn from each other.

Sounds just like the concept of 'bringing democracy to the Middle East'...

Absurd !!!!

Bottom line is this-trains, or to be more specific, passenger trains are a larger part of the social fabric in the UK than they are here in the US.

DPK

Having occasionally read copies of "Heritage Railway", and having heard first-hand reports from two RMNE members (who are also Severn Valley Rwy members and frequent visitors to "the old country" preserved railways), I simply cannot fathom how anyone involved in preservation railroading in Great Britain can "look longingly at what we have accomplished" in the US. Am I missing something here?

The Brits are so far ahead of us in this regard ("old trains") that there is no contest.

The exchange idea is a good one; it would be nice to see that develop and I'd like to see RMNE participate if it does.

Howard P.
Baffled, CT