Okay, I’m confused, what’s absurd? (without the political commentary)
1) Trying to learn from other operations both here and overseas?
2) Trying to gather the basic information on heritage railroading in the US?
3) Or even trying to preserve our railroad heritage here in the US, when it could be argued that the public doesn’t care?
4) Or trying to maintain and operate century old steam locomotives without any infrastructure?

I do agree with the saying under your name

How about the 3985, 844, 4449 and 261? (Just to name a few.) There is nothing quite like them left in the world. And since we’ve hosted a few international photo safaris here, yes, I would say that people are impressed with what we’ve accomplished.

Do we still have more work to do? Absolutely!

As a person who admires what the Brits have accomplished, yes we can learn from them and at the same time we do have something to offer.

I wish I knew what the absurdity was in reference to - but it can't be a lack of interest from foreigh railroaders in US operations and equipment based on my experience. I've had the privilege of hosting visitors from the UK, NZ, Oz, DDR and a few other countries for time frames from a couple hours to a week. I've learned a lot and tried to teach a few things in return.

I think we may have lost sight of how different our technology and operation is from the standards in other parts of the world - the biggest steam in the UK is a branchline light decapod by our standards. Their standard freight engine for over a century is our yardgoat. There's a romance in our "Old West" and in the narrow gage mountain lines that crosses international borders readily.

Our locomotives are not only huge in comparison, but rough and ready in design and appearance. The esthetic difference is probably a source of interest for many.

European railways were built to connect densely populated cities that had been around for generations. Ours were tools used to open a frontier. This has impacted their construction and our landscape, such that taking AMTRAK acrooss our country is a very different experience than taking a train across France and Germany. Why shouldn't our landscape interest foreigners as much as their landscape would interest us as visitors?

If anybody wants to pursue developing an exchange program, I'd be pleased to help with some contacts.

dave

"1) Trying to learn from other operations both here and overseas?"

Always a good thing, and one of the reasons there needs to be more seminars at ARM and TRAIN meetings. And have more presenters from historic and tourism organizations outside heritage railroading, too-- gives us a wider perspective.

"2) Trying to gather the basic information on heritage railroading in the US?"

I find it most curious that 35 years after TRAIN's founding in 1972, and 45+ years after ARM's start, that those statistics are not instantly available on-line at the respective websites of the two organizations.

I think I'll leave #3 and #4 alone for now.

Howard P.

The constant comparison of American culture to British (or any other )culture within this forum is patently ABSURD.

As I see it, any argument based upon taking advantage of non-existent synergies between the two is null.

There are many, many more activities that compete for leisure time in the USA than in the UK-or any other country, for that matter.

Anyone see the attendance figures for the Daytona 500 ? I suspect that there are more NASCAR fans in the USA than there are rail preservationists in any other country one could name.

Railroad preservation will never become mainstream in the US based upon the actions of a few enthusiasts jumping up and down.

DPK

Two responses in general:

First, I find the implication that "There are many, many more activities that compete for leisure time in the USA than in the UK-or any other country, for that matter" to be poppycock, balderdash, bollocks, and horse manure. It reeks of the worst ethnocentrism, the kind that truly does (all politics aside) make the rest of the world "hate us," as the saying goes. It's almost not worthy of response, but just in summary: We have NASCAR and football, they have soccer and excursion lines. We have fast food, they have pubs. They have remote Scotland, we have Alaska. You almost can't hurl a rotten leek in Britain without hitting some historic place or site. We have shopping malls.

Okay, rant mode off.

In response to the otherwise excellent suggestion of international cooperation, I ask: Exactly how do we finance this? It's been my experience that, in the NRHS, the position of "National Director" in a chapter is by default held by the well-to-do retired member that is willing (if possible) to drive/fly/Amtrak to the quarterly National meetings of the NRHS around the country--ON THEIR OWN DIME. If there's a chapter that's financing the attendance of a director at a meeting or convention, I'd like to hear about it. The National NRHS is currently taking a great deal of flak--and probably a lot of membership non-renewals--because they had to raise their membership dues to cover basic operations that they could no longer get volunteers to do for free. No way will I even touch on national conventions and their worth tonight, thank you.

Supposing I'm the director, CMO, or some other worthwhile member of the State Railroad Museum or Noted Excursion Line. Supposing there'd be some really good sense in my attending an international conference on railway museums, both to show about our own museum and to learn what works in Britain, new ways of thinking outside the box, etc. Maybe I got invited. Now, honestly, can anyone think of ANY railroad museum in North America, save for possibly the state-run museums of California, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania, and maybe Steamtown NHS, that would find or "create" the money to send me across the nation or ocean to said conference? Even on a pauper's shoestring--sleeping on sofas with friends or volunteer hosts, eating like a church mouse, etc.--such a trip is likely to cost a minimum of two thousand dollars in travel and expenses. (I spent three weeks in the UK in 1991, half of said time sleeping with friends and Deltic Preservation Society members or even in railway volunteers' sleepers at excursion lines--and it still cost a couple grand. Adjust for inflation.) Now, does it happen that the "best" representatives for your operation or museum are also the ones who can afford the time off, the expense of travel, and/or the vacation time at work? Or will you just send the guy who happens to have a daughter living out that way that he can visit for the rest of the week, and he'll put in a "token" appearance on the "big" weekend? Furthermore, what guarantee do we have that the places that are doing things "right" will spare folks to put in an appearance? If everyone at this gathering is, for want of a better term, a "McRailroad Museum" (the unpainted Pullman still in work train configuration, a derelict industrial switcher, the ex-park steamer still awaiting its tender/tank and about 100 other pieces, a caboose, and whatever station survived in that neck of the woods), then what is actually learned or imparted?

Even the vaunted Smithsonian Institution is being rocked to its foundation by allegations of lavish overspending by its directors, including accounts of incredible travel by the director of the National Museum of the American Indian to conferences around the world. Now, in the context of a discussion like this, those of us who know something about museum operation and administration can at least say "well, just what was he doing?" In almost any other context, it looks like the guy spent all of his time jet-setting and no time in the actual office.

In short (too late, I know), can anybody conjure up an event that would get the likes of Mark Bassett, Howard Pincus, Linn Moedinger/Kelly Anderson, the directors of the CSRM/RRMPa/NCTM/NCTM/IRM, and a couple dozen other folks to sacrifice time and money to go?

The only way that I can see any such co-op projects working out is with a vastly increased use of electronics and the Internet--teleconferencing, DVD/CD presentations, etc. But that would involve people who are Internet/computer-savvy, wouldn't it?

Foks,

This thread has generated a lot of good thoughtful comments.

But so far I have not seen the heritage Lottery mentioned. This is a national lottery that funds sports, little theatre groups, and historic preservation of buildings , ships and trains.

Until there is some place that a train museum can go to ans ask for and get grants of $500,000 to $1,000,000 in this country. There is no way we can even think of "catching up".

Another thing is that we can not create is a National Railroad Museum like York because there were just too many kinds of railroads in the United States. How can you put a PRR GG!, a Burlington Zephyr, a Shay logging train and a Louisiana short line locomotive, to name a few in one place and hope to make it meaningful. So we have regional rail museums just like we have regional maritime museums.

Aside from the well known A1 Pacific project; two of my favorites are the Rail Motor + Cars project ath the Ditcot Steam Centre and the re-building of several miles of Welsh two foot gauge railroad on the original right of way. That is heritage lottery money for you!

Then there are tram cars at Critch and other places,
and the London Transport Museum with horses to Diesel buses.

Yes they have historic preservation over there!

Ted Miles

I agree that assuming we could simply replicate anything done successfully in the UK (or anywhere else) and expect the same result would be absurd - but I can't accept the idea that there's nothing useful that could be learned by exploring what has worked or not in other places, or examining the cultural, geographic and technological differences. Thomas the Bank Engine would be one example off the top of my head..........could we adapt a Hogwarts Express event? Could an Australian railway put on a Polar Express event and prosper? Maybe. Possibly worth considering rather than rejecting out of hand.

I am also somewhat ashamed that we as an industry haven't yet compiled good real data - but then we haven't truly matured too far past the hobby club incarnation in many cases. Even the for profits probably haven't grokked the potential benefit in developing and sharing information industrywide, but I'd bet the majority of them have some good information of their own on tap. I'm amazed we can all agree (mostly) on an annual convention, or actually usually two.

St Louis also has a very wide representation and mission in its collections. Quixotic certainly, as is IRM - but both are pulling it off, one a nonprofit the other suported (sort of) by a county. National collection federally supported? Steamtown is closest in theory, but i don't believe they have a stated purpose of collecting a truly national representative collection, or a breadth past steam. If I'm wrong about this I apologise, and would welcome better information.

dave

Not to diminish the wonderful benefits of the UK's National Heritage Lottery Fund, but the VAST majority of the UK's heritage railway projects were begun and in most cases completed LONG before the Heritage Lottery Fund came about in 1994--including the establishment of nearly every excursion line and the rescue for preservation of EVERY steamer in the UK (including the Barry scrapyard hulks). More info at http://www.hlf.org.uk/English/ for those who actually care.

Furthermore, don't think the HLF is a giant cash cow to all of Britain's excursion lines. They have to compete for the money against every darned historical manor/castle/battlefield/canal boat/tall ship/church/you-name-it, and even Britain has its "politically correct" causes such as the documenting of slavery. Do you have a railroad/loco that would stand up to competition like the Underground Railroad, the ironclad Monitor, the SS United States, the "Spruce Goose," and the first "Air Force One"?

Oh, yeah, you've forgotten about something else--all that money offered to us in ISTEA and TEA-21. Hey, I didn't want the pork, but some politicians put that damned trough in front of all of us. How well did YOUR grant-writing do, if I may ask? Hmmmmmm?



By exactly the same token and exactly the same reasoning, we can't create a National Air and Space Museum. Oh, wait, we HAVE--and it's the most visited of the Smithsonian museums (mostly because it stays open).

We can, too, create a National Railroad Museum. We have three or four in at least some form of name along those lines past or present (Scranton; Hamlet, NC; Green Bay, WI; Kirkwood, MO) and three state-level museums that each come close to fulfilling the interpretive role not necessarily filled by those four (Pa., NC., and Ca.). Let's also remember Quebec's Canadian Railway Museum and the railroads at Ottawa's Museum of Science & Technology.

What we lack is the focus, the determination, the cohesion, and the political clout as an avocation and cause. Although I'm one of the ones who says the most that the British experience is fundamentally different from the North American one, I reject out of hand the presumption that a truly "national" railroad museum in the U.S.--in function and purpose as well as name--is impossible, unless we're all willing to agree that the four factors I list above are totally beyond hope or reach--and if you do so, then just call the damned scrappers and be done with it all, because there's no future for us.



You know, I just spent a good 20-30 minutes searching the HLF database (which has a terrible search function), and I'm not finding anything about ANY of those three projects, confirming my suspicions that you seem to be giving the HLF far more credit than it deserves--and far too little credit to the folks whose sweat, dreams, efforts, and pounds actually make such things happen.

YES, I'm once again becoming an argumentative, hot-headed b*st*rd. But the fact is, what we've been reading above amounts to excuse-making that covers up our actual inadequacies. I choose to reject those excuses, and I challenge the "industry" to rise above those excuses and show them for the "bollocks" they are.

It is a chicken and egg problem. But to get the big money we need a voice and information to back up that voice. Does it work yes! The following is a series of quotes from a grant application I did. The grant application is call the Iron Road across the Silver State. (The comments in the paraphrases are my comments for this posting.)

Have you talked with other potential partners and with what results?
I have contacted the Comstock Historic District, State Museum System, Nevada Historical Society, Tonopah Mining Park, the V & T Railroad, the NE Nevada Museum, Sparks Heritage Museum, Austin Historical Society, White Pine Public Museum and Clark County Museum all want to participate and be part of this project. (To my knowledge, this is the first time anyone spoke to these venues about working together. They all agreed to participate.)

Provide a description of the overall project, including how the grant and matching funds will be spent. Include justification describing objectives and goals:
Nevada has a rich railroad heritage that encompasses the state. The project would create a brochure that illustrates this heritage. It is a joint project between museums and railroads throughout the state. There are three aspects of this project. The first aspect would be the museum aspect. Museums with a railroad connection would be spotlighted. Secondly, the operating railroads in our state would be listed and highlighted. Then for the adventure traveler, we would show where abandon rail lines are and point out what can be seen today. Some of these abandon rail lines have been turned into trails. As part of the brochure would be a Nevada Rail Pass. Visitors showing this rail pass would receive discounted admission to participating venues. The grant funds would be used for the creation, printing and some of the distribution of the brochure. Matching funds would be spent on photographs, research and writing. (Every participant agreed to participate in the Nevada Rail Pass program.)

Specifically describe how Nevada Commission on Tourism funds will be utilized in this project:
NCOT funds will be used for the design of the brochure and rail pass, the printing of the brochure, and partial distribution costs of the brochure.

How many visitors, from outside a 100-mile radius, do you expect to draw to your area as a result of this project?
Currently about 187,000 rail visitors come to Nevada a year. A unifying brochure with an admission discount at the different venues, this number will increase. A conservative estimate of a 25% increase, adds 46,750 additional visitors annually. (No one asked how many people visited rail venues before. I was surprised. Will we hit the 25%, I don’t know but if our package is good we have a chance.)

How many total nights do you expect the out-of-area visitors to spend in your area as a result of this project?
The expectation of 233,750 rail visitors should generate 77,916 room nights in the first year. (In Nevada and else where - its all about room nights. Also looking for a funding source that pays off like a slot machine? How about asking for a split of the room tax revenue that is generated by your community?)

Approximately how many people outside your immediate vicinity (both in-state and out-of-state) will be exposed to the promotion of this project?
Millions, the combination of the internet, national publications and rack distribution will produce this number.

Project the expected increase in visitor numbers as a result of this project:
A 25% increase is projected. This would increase rail visitation by 46,750 annually. It would also encourage this unique demographic to extend their stay in Nevada and visit other points of rail interest if they knew where they were.

What is the overall economic impact of this project?
Using NCOT figures, the economic impact would be $87,188,750 annually. (This is the number that blew my socks off! $87,188,750 gathered from rail visitors!!!! And Nevada is not known to be a hotbed of rail venues. NCOT stands for Nevada Commission on Tourism.)

The grant was approved. I received $12,000 to put the brochure together. With a little luck, this project will take on a life of its own. This is just a small reason why either ARM, TRAIN, NRHS or even Kalmbach need to gather the information on heritage railroading in the US and issue an Annual Report. Would it be a lot of work, yes. But would it open additional sources of funding, YES!!! But we need the information.

We have been fortunate to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars from grantors. Why? Because I can reference historic preservation angles and more importantly to the policticans the magic words economic development which they equate with dollars. And it usually boils down to the almighty buck.

So yes there is a way to play catch-up but we need to get the information. How big is the rail visitor market in the US? How many dollars does it generate? If we can hit $87 million in Nevada gee I wonder what other states do?

Well, yes you do. But as the largest railroad museum in the country with over 400 pieces in the collection, you are not typical in any way!

The Museum of Transport in St Louis is another possible museum with a national focus.

Ted Miles

The Welsh Highland project got over 4 million pounds, but it was the Millenium Commission (a similar but different lottery-funded grant program): http://www.millennium.gov.uk/cgi-site/awards.cgi?action=detail&id=130&t=2

Didcot got 768k from HLF: http://www.railmotor93.org/railmotorrestore.html

It appears the A1 group did not qualify for HLF funds as the project is a replica. However, other mainline restorations have qualified, e.g.:
http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/News/News+Archive/2006/May+2006/Darlington+Railway+Works+Open+Day.htm

I told you it was a terrible search engine. (^_^)