Ah, the "Lackawanna Dieselfest" again....

Gosh, there seems to be an echo in here!

MX

Not as many cool moving parts for kids (of all ages). If there is a commuter railroad in or near town, that itch is easily scratched for a lot less than a ride behind an antique growler. I do think it would be an idea to have both steam and diesel available. Obviously the steam would have a premium ticket. A similar business model could be the Grand Canyon???

In answer to a well-known photographer and frequent magazine news photo byline who claims that "I forwarded that clip to three correspondents who are considerably more knowledgeable about foreign steam than you are, and all three of them identified those steam locos as Chinese!"....................

I apologize. The clip was NOT "main-line steam" as we normally think of it, but a preserved steam line in Holland: De Veluwsche Stoomtrein Maatschappij, or Veluwsche Steam Train Association:

http://www.stoomtrein.org/index.html
A half-functional English translation via Google is at http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stoomtrein.org%2Fmaterieel%2Fmat_stoom.html&langpair=nl%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

The train seen in the video at YouTube was filmed at the railway's "Back to the Past" days, equivalent to a "railfan weekend" in all practical aspects, in September 2005, between Apeldoorn and Beekbergen with 10 steam locomotives on one train: "8 locs of the VSM, 1 of the ZLSM and 1 of the SSN", according to the video's poster.

According to the website's steam roster page, found translated at
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stoomtrein.org%2Fmaterieel%2Fmat_stoom.html&langpair=nl%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
The railroad's motive power is almost exclusively ex-German "big steam". I tried to get a run-down of what passed on that video, and my original guesses before I had the roster was "Two Kriegsloks, a 01/03 Pacific, followed by an East German loco with a Heinl feedwater heater, a 2-8-2 class 41 or a 2-10-0 class 50 sub-class, then a 2-8-2T of class 078 (I think), the olive green one is a non-German one--I *think* it's a Swedish 4-6-0 like the one that was in Maine on the B&ML--followed by no fewer than THREE East German Heinl-equipped Kriegslok 2-10-0's, and finally a war-built "austerity" Kriegslok 2-10-0........." Now that I see a roster, I'm thinking the 41 or the 01/03 was a class 23........... and they don't have THAT many Kriegsloks, do they? errrr, actually it appears they DO! And what I thought was a Class 078 seems instead to be their Polish TKp 0-8-0T.......

So.......... On the one hand, it's NOT a big main-line event ferry movement. Rather, it's just the equivalent of the EBT throwing all four of their operable locos on one train (which they did ONCE, as I recall), or the Durango & Silverton or Strasburg throwing every available steamer on one train. Even taking into consideration track speeds, economics, boiler regulations, etc., here, could ANY steam operation in the USA other than D&S or Mount Washington even muster FIVE steamers on one train at once, let alone ten? Strasburg could only pull off four, plus maybe 972 or a guest loco....... I've seen four at Cass, but geared locos are an anomaly......

Furthermore, I fully agree, such an action in the USA or Canada would not be economically feasible, not even for an NRHS convention--it's pure showmanship in this case. Bragging rights. But WHAT bragging rights. It's the "wow factor" many of us say railfanning lacks today.

Gee, I wonder what we can learn from the VSM. Might be a worthwhile brief if I can scrounge up more material.

Okay, show of hands, who else thought they were Chinese? Anyone? Anyone? <:-)

.

Actually, I thought that someone had been having fun with their computer animation program.. ;)

Once upon a time, in 1999, in the land of Sacramento, CA, pre-Ahnold, there was a gathering of many steam engines, including 4 of the biggest, 3751, 4449, 8444, and 3965. One morning the 'Big 4' all moved slowly but together across a highway to an open field so they could blow down safely and be serviced.
Did anyone else witness that or did I just dream it one night??

90, 89, 7312, 475............. you don't have 1223 or "7002"............. 972 isn't running yet........

Oh, come on now, you don't actually "own" Thomas the Tank Engine, and you couldn't put her on a train with the other four, could you? That doesn't count!

To some extent I agree with Dave Griner’s assessment of the situation in the USA as far as our industry is concerned. I don’t know what the solution is but part of having the right solution is having the proper timing for that solution.

We are currently at a “low interest in history” point in our country compared with other times. Museums and historical sites from all walks are suffering. Trying to force people to buy bacon when they want broccoli, is not going to work. All things change. Eventually bacon will be more popular than broccoli and that is when you sell bacon. The idea is to not lose the bacon in the meantime.

How do we preserve the bacon, or in our case, railroad heritage? Support what we already have and focus our resources on keeping it. We have some pretty neat stuff in this country which is running all the time. That is both a blessing and a curse. The fact that D&S routinely plies the 45 miles from Durango to Silverton, or Strasburg ping-pongs endlessly between Strasburg and Paradise is what keeps them alive. It is also what causes them to be taken for granted. This scenario is played out across this nation at many operations and is necessary for heritage railroading to survive but it is often seen as too commonplace to generate any excitement.

Resources spent for pure railroad special events often fail to provide a return on investment which siphons funds to support the core organizations. New operations starting up within spitting distance of existing organizations weakens both. As a railfan, I can get excited about, for example, the differences between Durango & Silverton and Cumbres & Toltec. Both are marvelous rides and each has its unique appeal, and I wish they would be connected again. On the other hand the case could be made that each would be stronger if the other did not exist because of the limited interest on the part of the general public. It boils down to how many outfits can keep chasing the same nickel.

It is my opinion that our business will not see a significant boost until people start to return to trains as a mode of transportation, which they seem to be doing at the moment – despite government’s diligent attempts to kill AMTRAK. Our business was built on nostalgia which is nothing more than a frame of reference that gives relevance. While I don’t know the numbers, it seems that we may be at a low point from a relevance standpoint. Based upon that, I don’t know that now is the best time to be putting on rail pageants that most people won’t care about. On the other hand, it is not a bad idea to plan for a future event that might occur in a more conducive environment.

I remember a bumper sticker that George Hart had on his car. It said “Support Your Local Canal”. Unfortunately that sticker and the sentiment existed long after there were any canals to support. It is far from too late for the same sentiment for heritage railroading. There is lots of it and it needs our support for what it is. We don’t need to force the issue by spending limited resources on events that may or may not break even. Western Maryland #734 is just as exciting right where she is – every day – day in and day out. That is what the general public needs to know.

> Could any railroad in the US run 5 steam locos at once?

Well, the Mt Rainier Scenic Railroad did exactly that back in 1998. We actually had 5 steam locomotives in steam during at least two of our special events, but the 1998 trip was the only one where we ran the passenger train with all 5 together on the point.

We've done quite a few tripleheaders, and the earlier special trip had 4 steamers on the point along with a surprise appearance by the 2-8-2T #17 as the highlight of the trip.

Photo:
http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib014/MRS5HDR.JPG

Video:
http://www.goldenrailvideo.com/SU.html

Due to boiler regulations and operating time on the various engines, we currently do not have 5 locomotives that can be steamed up. I think we're at 3 at the moment, with our Shay being in good mechanical condition, but I think it is in need of new boiler tubes and/or some paperwork for additional time on the ones it has.

It is quite possible that in the future we could once again muster 5 steamers on one train.

As to whether or not Golden Rail Video's claim of it being the only US Quintuple header in the last 50 years is correct or not I'm not certain. I do know it's quite rare.

I'm trying to recall the details on Steam Expo in Vancouver, BC in 1986. When they moved the steam engines back to the display area, they had two groups, the larger locos and the smaller ones.

The large ones took a more circutious route, due to curvature. The smaller ones moved as a group, but I am pretty certain it was more like a parade, and we were not coupled together. I was conductor on the lead engine on the trip back (Heisler #91) and I felt like royalty due to the huge crowds lining the track the entire way.

I don't recall if they coupled the big engines together or not, but if they did, that would have been a good number of locos.

One thing is for certain Steam Expo was by far and away the biggest gathering of active steam locomotives I've ever seen. I think the count was over 20 locomotives in steam.

I would certainly think the "real" thomas would count. Not one of the "55 gallon drum on a skateboard" versions ;) but what's wrong with the actual steam one? So what if it's painted blue...

PS - While I also call most steam engines a her, I would think that Thomas is a "him". <vbg>

I was there and enjoyed that truly GRAND steamshow in June 1999 at CSRM Sacramento. Funny how 9 years ago can seem like an eternity today.
By the way the UP had the 844 AND 3985 there at Sacramento. I do not think the UP has a 3965 steam locomotive. That was also the very FIRST Northern California trip that the ATSF 3751 mads I was wondering when someone was going to mention "Railfair 1999" in this discussion. That was a truly amazing amount of coordination and hard work by so many people to put on Railfair 1999 Sacramento. Thank you so very much everyone for the happy memories of 1999 !
--- Daniel

==================================

Daniel,
You're correct, UP's 4-6-6-4 is #3985, and for the record the 844 was 844 in 1999, having been re-renumbered back in 1989 according to the UP website.

The olive green locomotive is indeed a Swedish class B 4-6-0 like the one in Maine.
Leverett Fernald

I suspect that the American Canal Society, which produced those bumper stickers, would beg to differ with you. They appear to be a national organization devoted to canals, both historic, such as the C&O canal, and modern, such as the navigation system on the Columbia River.




http://www.americancanals.org/

I wonder if we could learn anything from them, Canal preservation and railway preservation may actually have some things in common, including the difficulty of making the work known to the general public.

As an example, our line has been in operation for over 25 years. We still frequently hear "I never knew about that..." or "You mean they still run steam locomotives?"

I have to humbly disagree with Linn that we are at a “low interest in history” but I do agree that museums and historical sites are suffering. We have the History Chanel, A & E and TLC . Why the dichotomy?

Look at how museum and historical sites are promoting themselves, so last century. This has been discussed here endlessly. So what to do?

An easy fix would be to have the TRAIN or ARM conventions at the same time every year. ARM members could go to their conventions and TRAIN members could go to theirs but there would be some cross pollination and better yet more vendors would attend. We’re either going to hang together or we’ll hang separately.

Not only should their conventions be held at the same time but there should be a joint website that showcases heritage railroading using the latest in web technology. Our stuff makes noise and has moving parts that is eye catching, yet we don’t show this to the public. (The NN Ry web site suffers from this aliment too.) From this joint web site people would be directed to different sites. I would be even be willing to pay a special assessment over my dues to see that this happens. And that’s coming from a person who is tough getting a dollar out of.

Every convention would have a component on engaging the public. Not advertising but developing programs that involve the public in what we do by using WEB 2.0, podcasts, youtube, etc.

Another way to engage is with programs developed specifically for the public. We offer both an adult and a teen RailCamp and it has been very successful. This is a program that can develop legs and spread to other venues. The beauty here is that it creates involvement! Right now we have a volunteer that will be spending a week here that lives in Texas. He’s an alumnus of RailCamp.

We need to partner with the History Channel, A & E, and TLC and others to get out our story on television, on video and then on the net. Again this is something that can't be done alone but only if we work together.



Again I have to humbly disagree. It is all in the presentation! I walked by a Lincoln Navigator the other day. I just can’t imagine taking this SUV over the Rubicon trail. Does a person need this vehicle? No, but they’re selling. Should this person have bought a small car that gets 50 mpg, yes but they didn’t. We can take a page out of this playbook. People don’t need to visit us; we need to create the need. But again, none of us can afford to do this alone.



This is the time to put on a rail pageant. Let’s face it; our timing is never going to get any better. The people who remember trains with a warm and fuzzy are dying off. The price of gas is going to remain high. We need to act now.

But the two Davids are correct. We’re in danger of shooting ourselves in the foot because of egos and we need time to plan.

Let’s pick 2012 as a year to celebrate our rail heritage. But I would like to see the pageant evolve two ways. First, pick a location for a large gathering of steam locomotives that’s all well and good. But also put together a package that different venues could have. Think Polar Express or Thomas the Tank. I would like to see it as a year round celebration with different highlights scheduled through the year across the county. Yes all issues are local but that doesn’t mean that we can’t join together and showcase what we do to a national audience.

Then once the first one is done, I'd like to commit to ta second one in 2016, 2020, etc.

There are hundreds of reasons why this wouldn't work. BUT it can work, if we work toether.