I am a 35 year member of Roanoke Chapter NRHS, with 11 years on it's board and 4 years as President so I think I can speak with some authority at least about that Chapter. It is incorporated as a standard 501c3 in Virginia. Roanoke Chapter most definitely owns its own equipment. At present, the roster includes 2 servicable FRA carded diesels, 1 steam loco, 7 passenger cars (5 servicable in operation at Spencer) 5 freight cars, 2 cabeese, an REA truck, and a lot of other "stuff" including track supplys some signals, etc. The Chapter also owns the fire damaged former Virginian Ry Roanoke passenger station, and has so far raised over $600,000 towards its eventual restoration. The Chapter currently has approximately 140 members, of which probably 40-50 percent are active or retired railroaders. Both the current President and VP are in their early 30's and employed in the RR industry. The Chapter also has an operating endowment fund.

When talking about the NRHS I think the only safe generalization that can be made about individual Chapters is that they are all different. Many suffer from the problems described above. And many are well managed organizations that make a strong contribution to the preservation community in their areas. In reality, being a Chapter of the NRHS means that you share in the name, your members get a magazine every now and then, and you get to send one person to the National's Board. Everything else is a function of the local membership and leadership. If National went belly up tomorrow, the strong Chapters would survive as independent preservation organizations, and the weak ones will continue to fade into oblivion. National does have problems, but the leadership is aware of them and is trying to change things. Time will tell whether they suceed or not.

I have been an NRHS member for 25 years as of 2007(family to boot), and I do not believe that any troubles an individual has seen can be attributed to the National. How many of you have had less than desirable results from a car dealer, doctor, neighbor, politician, you name it. Now, put some of those into a group where the only similarity is an interest in rail transportation. You will have the power plays, tunnel vision, one-sided agendas, etc. The National brings a umbrella of uniformity to things, but each chapter has is own by-laws, developed within the state they are located in. My chapter had ownership of cars in the 1980's, as we saw potential revenue from excursions on the horizon. We were able to get umbrella insurance coverage from the National for excursions at better rates than our own. But the light went out as fast as it came for us, thanks to many factors, mostly out of our control. This disenchanted some, who just left. So the chapter has backtracked to "slide-night" get together's, a newsletter, exibits, and the preservation of documents, photos, and the like. We always wanted railroaders in the ranks, to keep the lines of communications open and show we were something more than trespassing foamers.
As well, it is partly the mission of the National to attract more and younger people. What about the youth railcamps over the last few years? Don't they count? And how many organizations out there see more replacements at their door than heads turning gray? It's based on the independent lifestyle we hold dear, and the diminishing representation of railroads to the overall pattern of life these days. Yes, there are a few 100,000 employees (or sum such number) of our modern day railroads, but its a blip on the radar of 320 million citizens, rather than the percentage it was from 1900 to 1950. Also, the National sends restoration grants out as well, don't they count?
It would be useful to have a National organization, even with flaws. I intend to maintain my membership. If they fad away or implode, I can't predict. I don't think they have squandered my money in the past, and I hope my support will help them move forward with new support for the membership. They can't stop every little disagreement within the chapters, so I'm not worried about that format for the organization. Change will come to the chapters over time, good and bad, and maybe make people interested in lending a hand, maybe not. You have to work with what you have.
Opinions and experiences are, of course, my own. Mike.

I have been a Harrisburg Chapter NRHS member for 25 years. I just love it. We do not expell railroaders!! Our railroaders are the members that provide info for our newsletters on historic equipment or actions or unusual rail moves, help us with technical information, help us charter trips or equipment, and provide financial and attendance support at our meetings and PRESERVATION activities. I have been a volunteer and part time employee at the M&H RR for 18 years and my chapter has not expelled me from the NRHS. On the contrary they publish info in their newletter when I report something new on the railroad about track, equipment, or steam or trolley operation. Our NS employee members report if they see something weird happening at Harris Tower when they go by on passing trains so we can check it out. The NRHS should not be critized as a whole for the failure of a few chapters. The Harrisburg Chapter has restored the former PRR Harris Tower, a wooden PRR caboose, and has an active interest in preserving GG-1 #4859. We have also contributed financially to several other preservation efforts both within and outside of the NRHS and try to financially sponsor a teenager each year to Railcamp. I believe the NRHS is a great organization not only for railroad history but also preservation.

When I decided I wanted to play with big trains, I looked to the local chapter of the NHRS and was surprised to find they didn't have any rolling stock. I can watch slides and look at photos on web sites such as this one. So that is when I found out about the PTHT and have been working on restoring our rolling stock ever since.

Later!
Mr. Ed

When I decided I wanted to play with trains, I hired with a class-1. All the fun(?) with pay and benefits.

I say that to examine another point. Back in the 70s, 80s, it apparently wasn't that easy to hire on with a railroad. So the only way people could hope to get around trains was to join a chapter with something running, or one sponsoring excursions. But lately - anyone with a pulse could get hired if they tried hard enough. I used to belong to a NRHS chapter and museum before I got hired. Now I let the chapter membership lapse. (I still maintain the museum membership, though). The chapter seems too photo, model and railfan orientated. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but as I climb up the seniority ladder (slowly), those issues appeal to me less. Also, some of the prominent 'railroader' members of that NRHS group are guys that are, quite frankly, not the most popular out here.

The topic of the NRHS and specific railway preservation is indeed an interesting topic, and one that certainly could allow the argument of the glass half full or half empty. The thought that a specific chapter can still be maintained in the eyes of the National organization with only 5 members is astonishing to me, as what exactly does that accomplish ?... Now with that said, does each chapter automatically fall into the likely category of becoming a non profit (ie tax exempt ) under some umbrella of the national organization ?.. ( if so, in theory could I and 4 to 5 friends become a chapter, buy a car or two, offer it for charter, and in the eyes of those who govern non profits, be legal, while uncle sam gives me a break on everything from paint to brake shoes ? I suspect if the bylaws are so liberal, to allow chapters who do nothing (no address, no news-letter, no meetings, no activity at all ), it should come as no surprise, that situations such as in the equipment at the depot at Hattiesburg exist. However, in my eyes, I suspect that many of these chapters were likely given equipment in years past, (likely before a Budd 10/6 became a "heritage" car), therefore in theory what was given away yesterday ( with I am sure the intent to preserve ) today has become rare ( as likely many other items like that item are now gone ) ... then add in the aging NRHS population, very little attempt to draw new members, age and exposure of the equipment to the elements ) and its likely easy to understand why equipment owned by some chapters sit neglected and fall into total disrepair. Unfortunately I don't see any of this changing, as without new younger members to throw some paint on that old steamer, or build a shelter to protect that aging coach, its likely most will rot ( in lieu of them being offered elsewhere ) and eventually fall victim to the elements.

It would seem that for every good story, there are five stories of neglect. It would be good to see some of this equipment change hands, for chapters to realize their limitations and or potential and be better custodians of these full size artifacts.

Just my opinion, as I am tired of looking at neglected, rusted, burnt out cars. However I suspect until the bylaws are tightened ( which they have no reason to do ) , then nothing will change ?

Am I reading to deep into this novel, or should it be put back on the shelf ?

Dean Levin

No:

Each NRHS Chapter is a separate corporate entity and cannot become a 501c3 tax exempt organization simply by being a chapter, each one that's tax exempt has obtained that status directly from IRS and is responsible for filing their own 990 each year.

Bob H.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 2-8-2 at the station in Hattiesburg MS owned by Fred Kepner and not NRHS?

If I'm to believe the Steam Locomotive Directory of North America (a.k.a. The Gospel According to St. J. David of Conrad), indeed, it's listed as Fred Kepner, on loan to Mississippi Great Southern Chapter NRHS, dates unknown.

Well, that's probably the only way to make such a quagmire worse..........

"Fred Kepner"..... isn't he the West Coast guy with a lot of taken-apart logging engines in a field someplace out there in Oregon?

He once inquired about one of RMNE's engines (2-6-2 #103), wanted to know if it was for sale.

Howard P.

“It would be good to see some of this equipment change hands, for chapters to realize their limitations and or potential and be better custodians of these full size artifacts”.

I too would like to see some equipment change hands.

As Dean pointed out some chapters have done great things.
Unfortunately, a lot of equipment is approaching the “Dust in the Wind” state. When I wanted to expand my freight car collection I reached out to a couple of NHRS chapters on several occasions about some of there aging equipment with no response.

I had to go to the class 1’s and poke, pry and beg to save these cars that where otherwise going to the scrap heap. I would have much rather sent the money to a URHS or similar organization.

I don’t know why chapters wouldn’t even entertain an offer?

Not only URHS but as other railroad preservation organizations age. It is time to recognize that hard decisions need to be made about there equipment. This can be very emotional for some who have put the life’s blood into this endeavor. However, the real possibility of preserving something is slipping away and it will be a loss for everyone.

This is a great thread without flames!

Scott Kwiatkowski
www.lehighvalley112.com

I work with a lot of NRHS chapters and railroad museums on a regular basis. Many of these chapters and or museum really have their act together but there is a fair amount of them that usually have any where from several to LOTS of equipment that they do not currently and never will have the resources or skills to restore. When approached regarding disposing of some of the equipment to generate funds to preserve the more significant pieces the response is always “Oh we are going to fix that car someday” . I got my start in this industry via a NRHS chapter and I was very involved in for many years. I have seen first hand the political struggles, personal agendas, decisions made by board members who have no knowledge of a subject, and lack of desire for an interruptive museum experience just so certain members can have the facility the way they see fit. When I joined, this chapter had 27 passenger cars and only 3-5 cars operated, 2-3 of the cars were open at their museum and the rest were in storage, receiving no maintenance. 20 years later that chapter now owns around 20 pieces of equipment, nothing operates, what few items are open at their museum have not been restored and are in about the same condition they were in 20 years ago. When I do consulting to non-profit clients I try to stress that although you are a non profit, volunteer organization you have revenue to generate and bills to pay so as a museum you really need to operate like a business and make sound business decisions that are based on the greater good and not personal preference. All non-profit organizations have these problems, but it seems in the railroad museum industry these problems are getting worse due to the ageing of the members and lack of new blood in the organizations. What is the solution? I wish I knew, but it really is heart breaking to see so much equipment rotting to the point where it can not be saved. I know you can not save everything, but there are some pieces worth saving. I know of a heavyweight observation car and a light weight sleeper from the 20th Century LTD that are rotting away. I think we can all agree there are not many Century cars still around. The owner of these cars has dreams of restoring them but they continue to rot! The only solution I can see is to save what you can and hope for the best on the unloved cars. One of the biggest hazards many of the organizations don’t realize is the liability issues that comes with owning equipment. If rusty steam locomotive is sitting in a park or siding and little Billy walks by the first thing little Billy is going to do is climb up and explore. If little Billy falls off and breaks an arm you know what is going to happen when his parents find out. Just because a museum is non-profit does not mean they can not be sued, I have even heard a case or two where the officers of the organization were involved in the lawsuit. Personally I know first hand the costs involved in owning equipment. I currently own a car and have owned 15 others over the years including an Amtrak certified car and yes it is expensive. Liability & Insurance issues have changed the industry drastically since the 1980’s and until many of the organizations realize that it is not 1980 anymore I see a dim future for many pieces of historically significant pieces of equipment.

John Suscheck/CEO
Ozark Mountain Railcar

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of you on this thread, because I **LOVE** my NRHS chapter. It has around 30 of the best sumbitches I know, and we have a great time at our meetings and our worksessions. Both are well-attended with an average of 30-50% participation.

It is true that many chapters have fallen into ruts, into the old movie and slide show routine, and probably personal empires for a few politically-inclined people.

On the other hand, there are just as many shining examples of good- no, great chapters that do as much for or in support of railroad preservation than any other group can claim. Locally, I can point to the Watauga Valley, Roanoke, Tennessee Valley, Greenville, Piedmont-Carolinas, Carolina Clinchfield and our own Alexander Chapters as having made superb accomplishments over the past five years.

One of the comments in the thread made the comment that "if the National folded, the best of the chapters would continue on as well-run local organizations." That much is very true, but it also benefits local chapters to walk in to a situation and identify themselves as a chapter of the NATIONAL RAILWAY historical society than the, say, ANYTOWN USA historical society. It just plain opens some doors that might not otherwise open.

So how do you keep it fresh? First, by understanding that is a multi-faceted hobby that appeals to many different angles. That may be modeling, that may be photography, rrdiana collecting, real restoration projects, etc. And even if some aspect does not appeal to you, everyone MUST show equal respect for ALL facets of this diamond we call railroading.

The hobby is shrinking and will continue to shrink, like it or not. The further we are removed the "glory days of railroading", whatever that was, interest and nostalgia will wane. I remember horse-drawn wagon trains here in Western NC when I was boy, and many folks, my grandfather included, participated in these events because it reminded them of their youth and of days gone by when things were done with horses and mules. That generation is gone, or at least unable physically to continue carrying on. As time marches on, that is, and will continue, to happen to the railroad hobby unless we continue to consolidate our interests and bring the preservationists to the modelers to the collectors to the historians, et al.

And the NRHS chapters are a great way to it.

The infrastructure is in place, has historically worked for many years, and only needs a face lift and some updating. New blood is of course needed, it always is. But bitching about something rather than enthusiastically jumping in and helping to forge a new direction will attract less people, and thus become a self-fulfiling prophecy.

Matt Bumgarner

I have to agree that there are certain shining examples of NRHS chapters that have done very well. As the Historian of the Tennessee Valley Chapter NRHS, I must say that we have been very fortunate to have done so well with our organization. The Tennessee Valley Railroad and East Chattanooga Belt Railway are owned by the chapter and all of the equipment is owned by the Tennessee Valley Railroad. Membership to the Museum is separate from NRHS Chapter and National membership-probably less than 25% of the Museum members are also Chapter members.

Active chapters and museums such as TVRM involve the membership and maintain outreach through regular membership publications and accessibility to leadership. We also encourage the local community to become involved through membership or participation in our donations program. Donors are acknowledged quarterly in our publication.

However, I must still say that I am concerned that the National organization is not recruiting younger people sufficiently to match the attrition through death of older members. We need to reinvent our image and work to keep the organization relevant to our younger potential members without alienating the older members. Efforts such as RailCamp are a good start but cannot possibly reach all of the target population we should be attempting to recruit.

History has fallen by the wayside. It is seen as boring, and the way it is taught, it is boring. It is boring when all you are given are facts, dates, and 50 yr old movies. Education on every other subject has become interactive and tactile, but the same cannot be said for history. OF course if we teach history how it happened we may offend (insert group here). So we sanitize it, which makes it dull and boring.

Look at the "popular" train sites. The least used parts of all of them are the history and/or nostalgia sections. But yet a post about some engine with some snazzy new paint scheme generates 56,000 views. People want to live in the here and now. They want trains that can hold their 15 second attention span. THen they go home and put it on youtube.

How can we change the attitudes of an entire generation? I fear we can't. To people like myself, steam has only ever existed as a tourist draw. But yet, there are people waxing nostalgia over the SD40-2s that are beginning to get retired (good.. old drafty junk). They grew up with modern diesel power.

It's funny if you think about it. The general tourist who will never volunteer for any rail group loves the steam. The people who may be persuaded to work on it prefer diesel. Tug of war, it seems.

And the fact that younger people that want to work with trains just go and get hired by the big railroads.... (like I did...what a mistake that was).