Copied from TrainOrders.com:

This information was brought to my attention by fellow AAPRCO member Taylor Johnson:

If anyone is interested in saving the two Sky Tops (ARROW CREEK and GOLD CREEK) in Buffalo, the following is the status & contact info provided by the demolition company. Please note the cars are tubed and much of the side sills have been compromised.

"As of the moment, these cars have not been scraped. We decided we will give the opportunity for someone to purchase them within the next few days. We have received a few more calls on them and provided someone has interest for them and provides money vice a donation request, they will be salvaged. In the past two days we have received word that the scrap steel market has made a significant jump. At this point it will not be worth our time to salvage and save the cars and may end up costing us money which cannot happen. I will let you know what happens".

Regards,

Jeff Crewson
Wargo Enterprises, Inc
Demolition & Excavation Services
www.wargo-enterprises.com
716-542-1333 Office
716-542-6060 Fax
716-474-1214 Cell

Some groups are scrambling, I think the cars will be set aside for a few days while the ferry is cut up. Historic in its own right.
I have been following the sad saga of Arrow Creek and Gold Creek for about 8 years now. With scrap and transportation costs at an all time high and museum revenue low I don’t give them much chance at survival.
News and photos of them cutting the Lansdowne up ..
www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/314214.html
The locals are quite happy to see it go away.
I would think someone operating or restoring similar cars would be very interested in trucks etc.
If not it looks like some more rail history gets converted into Chinese rebar.

I do not disagree with any of your sentiments. And it is nice you mention IRM. Right now in my department there, we know of 17 cars 'available' and mostly worthy of saving and acquisition. THEY JUST KEEP COMING!!

The reality is that EXCLUDING any Restoration costs, even a minimal dip job, adding one new "FREE" car to the collection and providing for a roof (to stabilize and conserve whatever is left there) represents a long term committment of our Muesum in the $20,000 to $30,000 range, maybe more depending on how it might have to be moved. One car we are looking at is 120 tons so we must perhaps be competitive at some level with a scrapper who sees that as $36,000!

So reality is a harsh taskmaster. I dig into my own wallet for every one of these projects that we pursue, but 2-3 cars PER YEAR is about the limit, and beyond the limit, of potential funding from friendly donations. I am sure that every preservation site is not rolling in dough (unless they are a bakery museum) and the 'general fund' cannot support many, if any, such efforts.

Bob Kutella

There have been many threads on RYPN about this museum or that society with a collection that resembles a junk yard. Unless a person or a group has been watching these cars and thinking of a battle plan to obtain, move and store them for years it is not likely that a fire drill at this late date is going to work.

At ELDCPS we have been asked about two interesting coaches, one DL&W and one Erie. Both are in the "fire drill" category. In addition both have serious issues that make them easily six-figure projects. You have to ask yourself what taking on something like this will do to your current projects. Also, will your donors to current projects or your last fire drill understand. I think it can be a noble thing to do to say no.

We do have two "holy grail" cars that we keep track of and we do have a plan in place when the fire drill comes. When that time comes I'll let everyone know if our battle plan was effective (but at least we have one).

In talking to the salvage company yesterday, they have a price of $25,000 per car, because they believe that is what the scrap value is. High scrap values notwithstanding, I think that is way over what the scrap value actually is, but that is their price. And, an agreement would need to be made by about today or Wednesday or the cars will be scrapped within a few days. With over-the-road heavy-haul trucking costs of easily $10,000 to $15,000 dollars to get the cars to a safe haven, plus cranes at each end to load and unload, that's a lot to ask. I think they are worth saving, but only if the initial purchase price of each car is just a few thousand dollars.

I know that it is too late for the Lansdowne herself; but I just wanted to mention what is being lost to maritime history as we read this.

She was a side wheel ferry built to carry trains. Her career was long and successful, finially being put out of business by I believe a tunnel.

Along with the Chief Wawatam an ice breaking train ferry which also lasted until recent years they were the last two steam train ferries on the Great Lakes.

At least we still have the Ludington ferries crossing the lake; with cars and trucks instead of trains.

For more on this see: Where Rails Meet The Sea: America's Connections Between Ships And Trains by
Michael Krieger.

Ted Miles

Thanks, Bob.

My friend on the 261 crew echoed your message almost verbatim in a private email, too. I admire that you and so many others dip into their own funds to save these kinds of artifacts. I once worked for you many years ago at IRM, and I'm sure many of the conversations were about just this same thing. Thanks to IRM and all that have done 200% towards preservation efforts over the years. I invoke IRM each time this happens as the ''supeman'' that's going to come in at the last minute, and save ''lois lane'' from the burning building. Just wishful thinking on my part. But, again, thanks for the post, it made me feel a little better. Think of how the Lansdowne jocks feel right now!

H

I just checked the spot price on scrap. One site was quoting $599 per ton for prepped steel. $25000 would be in the ballpark. OUCH!!!

Considering the scrap value may be the most significant immediate problem, Is there a problem child car out there than can be traded to the scrapper to offset the scrap loss. I am thinking that the Camp Grant at IRM could be such a candidate. A heavy weight Pullman like Camp Grant could be heavy enough to not only provide a lb. for lb. trade, but also off set crane costs at the shipping end.

Of course, I am speculating from 2,000 miles away. But it does seem like the Milwaukee Skytops are a pretty unique and identifiable car, which would be real center piece of a collection with a Midwest prospective and collection goal.

Do any other Skytops exist which might be better candidates for preservation?

As I see it both of these cars should be saved, however because of their condition, a full and historic restoration is unlikely. So both would need to be adaptively re-used for display purposes, or creatively reconstructed for some railroad purpose.

I imagine that one of the railcar rebuilders might get one on speculation to rebuild it for a private railcar owner, or some dinner train or scenic railway.

The other car could very well go on permanent display at the Milwaukee Art Museum where they had the Cedar Rapids (I believe) on display a number of years ago. It could be a gallery dedicated to the designer.

O. Anderson

Of course, save 'em both. Or use the parts from both to make one viable car.

The Marble Creek is the only 8 DBR car not 'officially' accounted for, although, a Trains article in 1998 listed it as 'scrapped'.

It's a fine state of affairs when vandals are delaying Amtrak trains between Chicago and Springfield by stealing copper wire from the signal system, and the determination as to whether or not an irreplaceable rr car or two gets saved, depends on the 'market price' of scrap steel. Ugh!

261 guys trying? Can't the argument be made there is no labor to sell them whole, and would be saving history. Little better price, hell sell them some retired cars.

I believe I misspoke, and I apologize to the readers of my message and to my good friends at the 261 organization.

I do not represent the FO261. I did not mean to imply that FO261 was in any way involved in this discussion, formally or informally. I have a very old friend in that organization, that's all. I do not speak for the FO261. The FO261 is not involved in this situation. And as of this minute, for my own safety, I respectfully remove myself from the discussion.

Bonne Chance to the Creek cars.

For your own safety?
From the FRIENDS of the 261? I always thought we were a pretty friendly group. I took your original post replying to Bob K. as meaning that the 261 group also would not be interested. And that would be a very correct assumption.
There isn't enough left of both cars put together to make much more than a pair of center sills.
From those who have been there, they are long since already nothing more than scrap.
There are other historic passenger cars with more potential if one wants to restore a historic coach.
Mark D.