So as not to lead a previous thread astray, I start a new one.
Howard's mention of the A4 in the NRM collection
was recently mentioned in a UK rail pub and the
interest of many brits to bring it home. Their
point is the same as Howard's, what purpose
does it serve in the USA? Face it, most Americans
think it looks funny.
So perhaps the NRM could realize a tidy sum by
selling it back? Long money changes hands when
some engines are sold in Britain whether to a
private owner or a historical group. This is
because they can get the money up. Few here
can even come close to the support efforts over
there get, and often on short notice.
I think this is a good opportunity for the NRM to
get some badly needed money, straighten out
their collection policy and do a little hands-across-
the-sea action.

On the other hand, I would love to see a more international representation of technology in US railroad museums. The A4 sitting next to the K4 would say a lot about the differences between our two nations.

We have a few examples of British power here, at least one Scandinavian steamer, some Chinese stuff - there are some narrow gage examples of Eastern European stock as well. Pretty much just a meager handful........

It seems to me we can't explore a colorful diverse universe based on insualrity.

dave

According to their site, and I see no link for a museum mission.

"The origin of the National Railroad Museum dates to 1956, when local individuals advanced the concept of a national museum dedicated to the American rail road history."

How a locomotive the British named in honor of General Eisenhower following the conclusion of WWII wound up in Green Bay I can't quite fathom. Has the time come to repatriate the engine back to the UK? Perhaps, but selling a museum piece because you can get a good money for it is not sound museum collection policy. Picture this- the A4 back in the UK sitting next to ex GWR Pendennis Castle! That would drive the anoraks nuts.

PS! In looking at the NRM site, I swear the image of 4017 is a digitally altered image of 4012 at Scranton. Look closely at the rail and chain fence and the numberboards. How funny if indeed the case.

The Brits are currently in an A4 revitalization mode. They would love to get a bunch of them steamed together, and frankly, who blames them? There is also another at Delson.

They did send the passenger car that had been displayed with the engine back to the U.K. from NRM. I assume this was a sale from NRM when it went back?

David Farlow

I believe it was two passenger cars, both of which had been in Churchill's funeral train. They returned to the Swanage Railway
( http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/ )

Last August supervised the load out and return to Britain of a British baggage van which was also part of Churchill's funeral train, which had been used as window dressing for a British themed golf resort in the LA area. It also went to the Swanage Railway... A couple of us had previously sent a British closed observation home... It had come over with the Flying Scott and had become a conference room for a San Francisco office building...

I may be mistaken, but wasn't the locomotive and train a gift from England to the United States? If indeed it was, it seems like the most appropriate thing to do would be to keep the locomotive undercover and well cared for. Otherwise it seems like it would be similar to sending the Merci boxcars back to France.

Plus, when they send the Parthenon Marble back to Greece, maybe then we'll talk.

Thanks, Taylor

I have to agree with Taylor. If the "DDE" is well cared for, it should remain here in the colonies.
In addition, at today's exchange rate, the cost of seeing A4s in their native environment is a bit too dear for many folk.
Also it should be remembered that another member of the class (the Mallard) holds the world speed record for steam.

I have been away from my computer, but now that I am home again, I will add this.

The number of foreigh steam locomotives in this country is quite small. Mostly the traffic has been to send them back home in recent years.

There was a Southern Rwy (UK) locomotive in the steamtown collection that went back. And there was another locomotive whose details that Ii do not have in front of me.

So except for a bunch of 60cm (2 foot) gauge German switch engines there are not a lot of choices.

As far as I know there is not a simgle French steam locomotive in the US or Canada. So you will have to go there to see some complex (3 cylinder) and fast steamers.

Same with the Malard at the National Railroad Museum at York, England. Go there to see her!

Ted Miles

Southern Ry. (UK) "Schools" class 4-4-0 926 Repton, which Steamtown had operating for all of two or three weekends and which I never got to see in operation even though only a short ways from me. It's now back in the UK--last I heard at the North Yorkshire Moors Ry.

Also "repatriated" from Steamtown was SR 30053, ex-London & South Western 0-4-4T commuter loco, which is also now operable on the West Somerset, or maybe the Swanage--these things get around over there, you know!

There WAS a Belgian-built 1877 vertical-boilered 0-4-0RT in the Steamtown collection years ago; it was sold to a restaurant owner in Binghamton, NY (as I recall) in the great Steamtown auction; it's last been reported outside the depot restaurant at the Erie station in Susquehanna, Pa.

I think the only other possibility left unstated at this point is the former British (ex-National Coal Board?) loco (0-6-2T sound right?) that was in Michigan on the Flying Dutchman operation for a while in the 1970s. Any ideas on current whereabouts?

There was an 1889-built French 2-6-0ST in Traverse City, Michigan that after service in Puerto Rico had been sold to a bank by former owner Greenfield Village/Edison Institute in the 1970s; my note show it sold and repatriated to France back in the 1990s.

Don't forget the 3' gauge Irish 0-4-4T at Pine Creek!

I’ve actually been collecting information during the last year or so with the intention of writing a “British Steam in North America” column(s). There is more out there than you think. We have the A4s Dwight D. Eisenhower at the National Railroad Museum and the Dominion of Canada at the Canadian Railway Museum. The former London, Brighton & South Coast “Terrier” 0-6-0T Waddon is also at Delson, and recently underwent a cosmetic restoration.

The Flying Duchess (not its original name – it was formerly Meaford Power Station No. 2, an 0-6-0T) is owned by the Louisville, Harrods Creek & Westport Railway Foundation in Kentucky. It ran on the Boyne City Railroad in Michigan in the 1970s before moving on to the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum. It’s in pieces right now, but has been mostly overhauled.

There are at least five narrow gauge Penrhyn Quarry engines around the US, most in storage, and another two in Canada (one of them has been sectioned at the science museum in Ontario).

We also have the Lady Edith Irish tank engine at New Jersey’s Pine Creek Railroad, the 0-4-4T Dunrobin at Fort Steele, and the little 0-4-0T Gwen privately-owned in California. The Canadian Pacific 4-4-0 operated by the Prairie Dog Central was built in Scotland, and there are a few early steam locomotives, including a Reading 0-4-0 in Philadelphia and the Smithsonian’s famous John Bull, that are of British manufacture.

While I love British steam, many fellow railfans don’t share my enthusiasm. I’m not sure how a column devoted to British steam in North America would go over with the readers of Railfan & Railroad (it would likely run in two parts, just to cover everything). I’d also want to include those engines, like the Repton, that have been repatriated.

Jeff Terry

Jeff,

I would like to read suck a roundup, if you can talk your editor into it.

I am glad to hear that the Southern engine that was a Steamtown is doing well back in the UK.

speaking of narrow gauge there is a Colonial Sugar Plantation engine at Edaville, USA which was last operated a couple of years ago. And at least one more of them is in storage in some unlikely place.

A check in J. David Conrad's book would turn it up.

Ted Miles

As one of this sites British readers, I have been reading this thread with interest, and would like to see a list of British Engines in the USA and details of their current status.

British Railways 60008 "Dwight D. Eisenhower" (originally LNER 4496 Golden Shuttle), was presented to the National Railway Museum in Wisconsin by British Railways in 1964, following a repaint at Doncaster Works. No alternations were made to its condition or livery and it is therefore the best preserved example of the ultimate development of the A4 design, with its AWS (Automatic Warning System of Train Control), Smith-Stone speed indicator, water scope etc, all still retained. With four preserved A4's in the UK (three of which are currently in working order, and slightly modified for main line running) the UK does not really need a fourth, its return and restoration, would cost at least $1,000,000, and this money could be better spent on overhauling locomotives we already have in the UK. As well as showing off what was once commonplace, museums should also “compare and contrast”, so having a British A4 alongside an American express loco is a good idea. One can point out, riveted frames v cast frames, vacuum brakes v air brakes, oil lamps v electric headlights, British loading gauge v American loading gauge, etc.

Other British built locomotives in the USA include a 2’0” gauge 0-4-4-0T by W.G.Bagnell Ltd at the Cripple Creek Railroad in Colorado, and a replica of Stephenson’s Rocket built Robert Stephenson & Co Ltd, in 1929 for Henry Ford. While there are also a 2’0” gauge Kerr Stuart 0-4-0ST “Wren” class locomotive and a 2’0” gauge Peckett 0-6-0ST in Canada.

Then there are the visitors. Some like “King George V” & “Royal Scot” (in 1927); “Coronation” (1938-194?); “Flying Scotsman” (1969-1973), are well known. Others are not, George Stephenson’s “Locomotion” built for the Stockton and Darlington Railway in 1825, was displayed at the Philadelphia Exhibition in 1876 and again at the Chicago Exhibition in 1883. Does anyone know any more details? I also know at the National Railway Museum’s replica “Rocket” has made at least one trip to the new world, and there must be others. “Rocket” has traveled “air freight” how many other locomotives have flown?

The trade is not however just one way. Currently there are seventeen USA built steam locomotives in the UK. There are all of either 2’0”/60cm gauge or standard and comprise :-
1 x Alco n.g. 2-6-2T – “Mountaineer” on Festiniog Railway, much rebuilt and currently out of use
3 x Alco s.g. 2-8-0 – World War 2 heavy freight locomotives.
1 x Baldwin n.g. 2-6-0 – At Brecon Mountain Railway.
2 x Baldwin n.g. 4-6-0T – Built for British War Dept in World War 1 (ex India).
1 x Baldwin n.g. 4-6-2 - At Brecon Mountain Railway (ex South Africa).
3 x Baldwin s.g. 2-8-0 – World War 2 heavy freight locomotives.
2 x Lima s.g. 2-8-0 – World War 2 heavy freight locomotives.
4 x Vulcan Iron Works s.g. 0-6-0T – World War 2 shunting locomotives (later Southern Railway).
If interested I can find/give more details.

William Shelford

The Canadian Pacific bought a group of North American design 4-4-0s in the 1882 from Dubs & Co. of Glasgow, Scotland. One of these, in rebuilt form, is at Winnipeg under the care of Vintage Locomotive Society and its Prairie Dog Central.

Here is a link for information on the locomotive:
http://www.pdcrailway.com/steamer.htm