One thing that has not been mentioned in the interesting threads on this subject is the outdated backshop facilities and machine tools that many railroads had to deal with in 1945. Not every road had a modern (20 years old or less) shop complex like ICRR's Paducah Shops. Read some of the trade publications of the time, and modernization of machine tools was a major issue. Not a few railroads were trying to maintain 1940-era Super Power in 1898 shop buildings. Many roads realized they could reduce 3-5 system shops to one or two with diesel power.

Another point is the employment of the shop crafts after dieselization. At first, many roads had their own shop forces doing things like traction motor and main gen overhaul, cylinder head rebuilding, etc., so that the shop forces would still be employed under existing agreements. Gradually, that changed, and unit exhange parts from the OEM loco manufacturer, or from the alternate suppliers (Chrome Crankshaft, etc.) became the norm, with further reductions in shop forces.

The shop crafts historically seemed to be the most militant and strike-prone of the railroad brotherhoods (research the history of the 1921-22 nationwide shop craft unions strike), and some of that bad feeling lasted for years on some roads.

hpincus@mindspring.com

I've got two words to add to these comments on the obsoleting of steam: ashes and technological lag.

Some have mentioned the cost savings associated with getting rid of water treatment and coaling facilities, but no one mentioned ashes. A photo of an old engine terminal will show a fair amount of investment in ash-handling facilities. As operators of engines like 3985 and 1522 are quick to tell us when we accuse them of being unmanly for not burning coal like PM 1225, if you burn oil you don't have to handle the fuel twice.

Another effluent from steam engines was sludge-laden boiler wash water. Even before environmental regulations, handling of these waste materials was problematical. As rarely as we run the 1225, we get hip-deep in this stuff pretty fast.

"At first, many roads had their own shop forces doing things like traction motor and main gen overhaul, cylinder head rebuilding, etc., so that the shop forces would still be employed under existing agreements. Gradually, that changed . . ."

I wondered how long it would take someone to mention how when Diesels were bought, they were worked into existing institutional structures, leaving a lot of cost savings on the table. Roundhouses weren't the only unsuitable structures that were retrofitted to handle Diesels. Although I don't have a citation for it, I can recall reading early economic arguments from EMD about how a railroad's entire motive-power establishment, from the VP for Motive Power on down to the guy in the ashpit could be replaced with and EMD salesman and parts catalog. The Diesel salesmen quickly abandoned this argument because it didn't fly. I suspect the reason for this was not only because the shopcraft unions were so feisty, but also because it didn't go over well at all with superintendents of motive power. With nothing to supervise, guess who's out of a job?

Of course, this has pretty much happened now, but the institutional lag time seems to have been over 40 years. For someone with a pile of old Pocket Lists, it would make an interesting bit of research to see how long the positions of "Chief Engineer of Motive Power" persisted after there was nothing to engineer.

Aarne Frobom
The Steam Railroading Institute
P. O. Box 665
Owosso, MI 48867-0665

froboma@mdot.state.mi.us

Cinder ballast ... another thing of the past. Not only weed free but self perpetuating. As it was hammered into dust it needed constant replenishing.
Not only that but if you had an unstable base you spent money on a layer of "grout" to support the roadbed.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> One thing that has not been mentioned in the
> interesting threads on this subject is the
> outdated backshop facilities and machine
> tools that many railroads had to deal with
> in 1945. Not every road had a modern (20
> years old or less) shop complex like ICRR's
> Paducah Shops. Read some of the trade
> publications of the time, and modernization
> of machine tools was a major issue. Not a
> few railroads were trying to maintain
> 1940-era Super Power in 1898 shop buildings.
> Many roads realized they could reduce 3-5
> system shops to one or two with diesel
> power.

> Another point is the employment of the shop
> crafts after dieselization. At first, many
> roads had their own shop forces doing things
> like traction motor and main gen overhaul,
> cylinder head rebuilding, etc., so that the
> shop forces would still be employed under
> existing agreements. Gradually, that
> changed, and unit exhange parts from the OEM
> loco manufacturer, or from the alternate
> suppliers (Chrome Crankshaft, etc.) became
> the norm, with further reductions in shop
> forces.

> The shop crafts historically seemed to be
> the most militant and strike-prone of the
> railroad brotherhoods (research the history
> of the 1921-22 nationwide shop craft unions
> strike), and some of that bad feeling lasted
> for years on some roads.

Howard, you are right about the long lasting hard-
feelings from the 22 strike. I went to work for the IC in '43 and there were still men in the shop who ate lunch all alone because they were
still labeled as Scabs and no one would associate with them. The fact that unions lost that strike I am sure heightened the resentment.

Jim


rrfanjim@mvn.net

I didn't go to work until 1978, and these people were retired by then, but were still thought of as scabs by their fellow workers. The 1922 nationwide strike divided many a railroad community for decades thereafter, and anyone with a 1922 seniority date was suspect. Any non-railroad, museum or shortline employees today would do well to remember that before crossing a picket line, as once labeled a scab, you are a scab for life..

Howard, you are right about the long lasting
> hard-
> feelings from the 22 strike. I went to work
> for the IC in '43 and there were still men
> in the shop who ate lunch all alone because
> they were
> still labeled as Scabs and no one would
> associate with them. The fact that unions
> lost that strike I am sure heightened the
> resentment.

> Jim


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Critterslist/message/4585
bobyar2001@yahoo.com

> I'm not a steam guy, so two questions about your very interesting posting. 1.) why the sludge in the water; how often did the boiler(s)have to be cleaned? 2.) what did you do with the sludge filled water?

haaghistory@yahoo.com

Boiler water has to be treated to get the dissolved minerals out of it before they coat the tubes and boiler shell with insoluable rock. It is also treated to prevent foaming. What do you think they did with it in the "good old daze"?????

lamontdc@adelphia.net

Well, ideally it went out with the blowdown apart from whatever went out with the boiler wash.

It goes back into the ground where it came from.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> That's why I really like this interchange. I learn something everyday! Thanks for the response. I should have known that they didn't send the sludge water to a processing plant. My ancestors probably drank the residue of sludge water. What a treat.

haaghistory@yahoo.com

> Blowdown is a term for emptying the boiler, perhaps? How often was this done? I'm clearly a babe in he woods about steam(a middle aged babe), and I appreciate the patience you experts have with people like me.

> It goes back into the ground where it came
> from.

> Dave


haaghistory@yahoo.com

if your ancestors may have consumed water contaminated with boiler sludge, if you are on a public water supply today, you are consuming MUCH worse stuff. Most boiler wash sludge is just concentrated (from being boiled off) minerals that were in the water and ground in the first place. No real big harm.

now solvent, ect. used to clean the outside of steam locomotives and their parts, well, that is ANOTHER story.........

lorija799@aol.com

Blowdown's flushing the boiler of accumulated sludge and the frequency varies depending on the quality of the water and the treatment, if any. Basically, how often it needs to be done. Boiling water leaves residue and blowing a boiler down gets rid of it. A crew will blow the engine down while it is in service. In some cases, while it is moving; in other cases in the yard between moves, depending on how the engine is set up and where they are.

The Electric City Trolley Museum Association

Kent; The old time boiler men said if you won't drink it, don't put it in your boiler!
Thw problem is that most water contains dissolved
solids. lime, magnesium sulphate,you name it. In
producing steam all this junk is left in the boiler. Steam is distilled water that hasn't yet condensed. Nalco and other boiler compounds helped
to keep these dissolved solids from turning into rock inside the boiler. Provided the operator did
his part blew these concentrates out of the mud ring on a regular basis. IOW you have to keep the concentration of dissolved solids as low as possible to protect the boiler's innards.
How do you tell when the boiler water is getting soupy? Easy, when you get suds out of the whistle
and black rain out the stack she's raising her water (foaming) and you are way behind with the blow bown business.
I came back from a NG rip with my white cap all
covered with black drops where the 483 had spit on me. As far as I know I was the only man in town with a white cap that had been spit on by a
real steam engine and would you believe that my wife wanted to wash it??
Jim

rrfanjim@mvn.net