Let me rephrase and clarify. I must learn to be properly caffeinated when I review my own prose.

Another example: I saw a rather lengthy thread about the placement of R&N 425's headlight. Its trivial, and is hardly earth shattering, since it doesn't affect the condition of the locomotive and is reversible. Nothing there instructive for other owners. Its nothing but a poll on aesthetics.

As for the goings on in Africa and China, I'm betting most of the readers react as I do. Interesting, but since I know squat about Angola, other than I vaguely seem to remind some sort of conflict circa the '70's-its the kind of post that presents absolutely no chance for bruised feelings, because we simply have no basis to dispute any aspect of the post.

Similarly, there's a thread about RJ Corman's paint job (almost like the Rdg 2100 issue a few years ago). More relevant would be a discussion of whether using QJ's and SY's afford the opportunity to provide and operating interpretation, while not making unique historic U.S. steam a consumable asset.

However, when we used to discuss those fundamental ideas-there would inevitably be somebody who described operating legacy steam as doing "violence" to a historic object. The conversations got heated, but were instructive in vetting two entirely different views of the proper way to engage in preservation-one focused on having operating machinery to instruct new generations, the other on having static displays composed as much as possible of "original fabric", but inoperable. Having vigorously opposed "industrial taxidermy", I remember the moderators clamping it down. Back channel, I remember receiving PM's that indicated that all metal objects have a tendency to degrade over time, whether operated or not-because of the fact that impurities degrade structural integrity over time. Another indicated that under pressure, metal deforms. I'm a CPA, not a metalurgist, so I never did get definitive answers on those matters.

Instead, we autocensor. Innumerable hot button topics such as the K-4 have become a "forbidden zone", when this IS EXACTLY the type of thing that should be discussed. There's a treasure trove of lessons to be harvested from assuming that given enough money, any locomotive can be restored. The list goes on.

At a certain point, we have to defer. When a Doyle M decides a 12-251 will power HIS PA and nor a 16-244, there will be "purists" out there in favor of ignoring the obvious-and it needs to be pointed out that some license must be granted, even if some of the "purists" have their tender sensibilities bruised.

Instead of being moderated, some of these threads have been truncated. The resul is innumerable trivial threads and a resulting lack of vigor and vitality.

"I'm looking at recent posts and they are by and large BORING. Oh, once in a while the Strasburg guys will post the their latest doings and that's great to see, but I see posts on "newsletter names", "angola steam", "steam in China".

Mr. "Superheater"

Are you saying steam outside of the United States, preserved or otherwise is Boring? or just not of interest to you and therefore irrelevant to this forum?

Boy, talk about inflammatory statements.......

TH

It's interesting to know that there's still stuff in Angola. It would be more interesting if there was some more context provided on Angola and its railways in general, and any plans for the use or disposition of the stuff. I'm as ignorant about Angola as anybody - most of us are kind of on foreign disaster and governmental hijinks burnout on the countries our media does cover, which doesn't include Angola, but does for some reason still include Brittany Spears. Go figure.

dave

I think the more accurate term would be "of limited relevance to the majority of RYPN readers". And he's likely right.

It's like the whole steam in China thing. If people who have no knowledge of or interest in Chinese railroading are to read such posts, there needs to be an entry into it for them.

Part of this means providing context for what is going on (they're retiring their last major steam equipped lines as they build some modern super railroads).

Part of this is to compare their experiences with ours, (dieselization in the 2000s there vs. the 1950s here).

Part of this is to delve into technical matters that would be pertinent to an industry that continues to use steam power daily (how do they make parts? What modern technology applications have they used to advance steam development?)

You might like foreign steam topics, but most are indifferent to them. If you want the majority to be interested in such things you have to find a way to connect those topics to the reader and make them relevant to them. That can be done, but rarely is.

I was a regular lurker on the NGDF and I learned a great deal through the forum. The discussion that triggered the "end" was tame compared to some of the dialogs in the past on the CHS and even further back concerning "Black Bart" and the C&TS. It was not the moderator who got upset (as far as I can tell) but the man providing the bandwidth - who seemed to be in a particularly bad mood that day.

I think the response was over the top, but I do not own the bandwidth, so it is not my judgment to make. I hope that the NGDF will return somehow. I appreciate other's attempts to provide alternative sites, but I prefer the flavor and atmosphere (and lack of clutter) of the original. I hope that Don will try again with a new host..........

snowrr (Silverton Northern, Ouray, & Western RR)
aka. Festus

Are you saying steam outside of the United States, preserved or otherwise is Boring? or just not of interest to you and therefore irrelevant to this forum?

No, see my post above. We all screw up, and I screwed up but good. Boring wasn't the right word and I can't think of the right one now.

On the contrary, I am EXTREMELY interested in the happenings of the UK. The Poles also seem to be marketing their legacy rail assets very well.

There's an active and vital group in those places and its too bad we don't have that sort of vigor stateside. Of course a big part of that is the disparities in our legal systems and woops! another verboten topic.

Still, if I see something about UK preservation-I know there's no possibility for dispute. I'm sure not going to argue with sucess.

Bro-if there was a 'Mount Olympus' of rail preservation, "mx" would be one of the few entitled to sit up there and throw lightening bolts down at the rest of you mortals :-)

NH 0401 wrote...



As your moderator, no one, even Zeus himself has the right to throw lighting bolts on this forum... We are trying to be an open forum. All opinions are welcome... All opinions presented here are likely to be discussed and the ideas presented subject to debate. There are no demi-gods.

Evidence of accomplishments and successes are of course of interest. But reference to such accomplishments open those accomplishments to question and debate...

(none of the above is intended to bring into question the accomplishments of the individual named....)

Moderator, RYPN and

There is nothing that irks me more about preservation than the recurring instances of what could be called "Nobska Syndrome". This term is derived from the name of the famous New England Steamship Company vessel whose website was still sailing along after she was scrapped, soliciting more money to pay the lawyers after millions of dollars of grant money were lost along with her. I am seeing more and more of these kind of problems in preservation lately, and I apologize for occasionally getting too blunt in my criticism of groups that are developing the symptoms. But frankly guys, highly visible failures alienate the donors and poison the environment for all preservation efforts. Sweeping discussion of such events under the carpet to be polite may avoid offending a few people but it squanders an opportunity to learn from the failed effort and possibly avoid making the same mistakes again.

MX

I want to be very careful in addressing this, from my perspective. I simply see civility as either being there or not. When the discussion forum is being civil, it still has an energy to it - but to me it is more a joy of information sharing and idea networking. I feel it demonstrates vitality this way.

When topics get charged with emotions, they become vigorous. They actually do not promote vitality, in my view, because people with rational thoughts and kinder demeanors start to feel excluded (perhaps out of fear, not wishing to be bothered) as a result of the climate created by others charged responses. The discussions get fast and furious. People lose their heads, then forget to think about their writing before hitting the submit button.

I don't believe that there are specific topics that, by themselves in theory, are not permitted here. However, because of past behavior of those at this board, we can expect a quick spiral into name calling and gross generalizations. Or misrepresenting subjects, or making complex social problems so intertwined in the discussion the purpose is more to bash the system rather than propose viable solutions. So the easy way to deal with misbehavior is to limit discussion on topics that are problematic.

Personally I wish we could have an off topic space, not so much a rant space, where people can take it outside, if the really want to discuss a "verboten" topic (politics, class issues, corporations, lawyers, environmental etc). Then, if they have figured out something good, I hope that sharing the idea at RYPN would be fine. I would be surprised if anyone volunteered for moderating such a bumpy side track.

In the NGDF/Dead Gote Saloon example, the second forum was also clearly a rant space, and perhaps the rougher ones forgot their manners when posting to NGDF in recent months/years.

Hope you feel that is a fair assessment.

O. Anderson

Civility doesn't equate to joy. I'm not shy to engage in an argument about something I believe passionately in. I cringe when civility is linked to terms like "joy", "sharing", "nice", etcetera. The fact is that bad things happen as well as good, people fail as well as succeed. When we conflate civility with pleasantry, we avoid topics that include failure, and with all due respect that is one of the most foolish things anyone can do.

We learn through failure. Squashing discussion of failure means squashing learning.

Now I *will* agree with you that this doesn't mean we should put up with name calling, insults, and so forth. And I *will* also agree with you that, sadly, that is a common occurrence when discussions get going on controversial topics. (Look at this particular discussion thread, however, for a model of how it ought to be done.)

I do understand that not everyone approaches conflict with the kind of attitude I have. I respect and understand that some see conflict as equating negativity or view it with fear, and back away.

And yes, it is easier to just shut away topics than deal with the possible fallout, especially if it devolves to virtual grade-school fist-fights.

I think the problem may be deeper than if a moderator wants to delve into the discussion and sit on the juveniles and keep it civil. We are a very small world, and projects are inherently wrapped up with personalities; critiquing one often seem like critiquing the other. "Play nice and say nice (as long as other people are looking)" isn't confined to RYPN or narrow gauge forums or other web sites; it's systemic in the industry.

Result? The "real" story ends up being told on the shop floor, or after a day of work, or in warped rumors and innuendo. Anyone who's been around more than one museum or tourist op knows this game. And how do we as an industry learn anything that way?

Interesting. To me, I have no problem with civility equating to joy.
But joy does not mean suppressing your passion, and to debunk that, I say to consider romance.

I am a fairly new volunteer at the Western Railway Museum, and I'm passionate. It is very common for me to take radical minority opinions. I want to preserve and operate postmodern equipment like LRVs and BART cars so we stay relevant to future volunteers. I feel the historic buildings at WRM are a tremendous asset, not least because getting building permits is like pulling teeth. And we go to dinner, and these get discussed and debated in a lively fashion.

But here's the critical point. Nobody feels personally slighted, attacked or put down by the discussion. We agree, at the very least, to disagree.

Partly that's because in face-to-face conversation, you have a bunch of non-word cues, ranging from intonation to a sly grin, that allow you to convey "We're just talking about stuff, this isn't personal and I hear your point too." Or "Don't raise this issue, it's a sore spot." Etc.

The Internet doesn't have that. And so communications on the Internet are much more of a challenge. It's much easier for conversations to (at least seem to) crawl sideways into "rudeness to other people". That is not allowed on RyPN, and that's reasonable. And the moderators of this forum have, in my observation, been quite consistent in squelching rudeness, but not passion.