> Many Tourist lines operate steam locomotives
> in reverse for several miles on every trip
> since many of these railroads lack the
> facilities to turn an engine at both ends of
> the line. Strasburg and the New Hope &
> Ivyland are two railroad operating steam
> locomtives in this fashion.

> I'm certainly no expert in the operation of
> a 2-8-0, but I believe that a general rule
> of thumb is that engineers should be able to
> stop the engine in half the range of their
> vision (whether running forward or in
> reverse). The exact speed this equates to
> depends on a lot of operating conditions.
> Mechanically, I don't believe there is any
> reason a steam locomotive can't go as fast
> forward as it can in reverse.

> Jeff

My expeeerience riding with different crews is that it doesn't rreally make much difference what wheel arrangement the locomotive has the problem backing up is the tender. The tender behaves much better when it is between the engine and cars moving forward. One of the scariest rides I ever had was in the cab of a "Q" M4. We had dropped our train in a siding and gone a couple of miles into town to eat and take water. When we started back to the train the tender began to sway from side to side and in my mind was swaying hard enough to lift the wheels off the track. The engineer wasn't too happy with it either because
he braked the speed down and took it real easy the rest of the way back to the train.
Engines built especially for suburban service were
usually tank engines and designed for operation in
either direction at schedule speeds. A 2-8-0 isn't designed for that kind of service.
Jim

rrfanjim@mvn.net

Your trip is too far by far!

This will be a rough ride in the cab at any speed over about 30mph

Maximum speed backing up (in steam days) was 40 MPH.. however you are further restricted to 25 mph over unprotected level crossings (Federal law).

Backing up this far is bad on the tubes account cold air entering the firebox.

It is also unsafe to operate this far in reverse.
Poor visibility, and engineer discomfort = potential danger.

If this is to be anything more than a one-time deal, you need to take other measures. Build a wye if its to be regular move. Or, pull it backwards with a diesel facing the proper way.

Otherwise you are asking for trouble!

> Our planned trip is roughly 45 miles, and
> there is some arguement over how fast we can
> back-up.

> The view from the cab (looking backward) is
> not as good, but not horrible.

> My understanding is that it can't go as fast
> in reverse because it doesn't have the
> leading (or trailing) pony truck when going
> backwards.


http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains
oldtimetrains@rrmail.com

What about running a cab-foward in reverse? Would that be going forward? Would a Kitson - Meyer go both ways at once?

Seems like (after reflecting) speed limitations on most tourist lines and museum lines around here are based on other conditions and forward speeds are lower than maximum safe backwards speeds.

Safe track and equipment will probably do well in both directions.

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

> What about running a cab-foward in reverse?
> Would that be going forward? Would a Kitson
> - Meyer go both ways at once?

> Seems like (after reflecting) speed
> limitations on most tourist lines and museum
> lines around here are based on other
> conditions and forward speeds are lower than
> maximum safe backwards speeds.

> Safe track and equipment will probably do
> well in both directions.

> Dave

While I do not claim to be an expert on this subject, a few things come to mind. First, unless the tender is full of fuel and water I can see where it would be swaying when being pushed by the locomotive, just like any empty car might do when pushed. Second, the pony truck is there to "guide" the locomotive through switches and changes in track directions. Even if the locomotive had a trailing truck, it is not mounted the same as a pony truck (except perhaps by intention as is the case on the SP Cab Forwards).

At the Sumpter Valley, like so many other short line, narrow gauge historic roads, we do not have a wye at both ends of our line. We do have plans for a balloon track encircling the Sumpter Dredge, but that is a ways off. So, we run around and couple to the caboose, and back down the 5 miles from Sumpter to McEwen, our initial starting point. Even though we have a 2-8-2 Mike, we limit out speed to 12mph. We have discussed increasing this to 15mph, but have not decided to do so at this time. We are concerned about increasing the speed in either direction, not because of our track, which has been judged to be capable of higher speeds, but because our cars are antique wood frame structures, and the afore mentioned concern about going higher speeds in reverse.

dan

svry@attbi.com

While a 2-10-4 running backwards is not quite the same as a 2-8-0, I remember the Independence Limited the Roanoke Chapter NRHS ran out of Lexington KY in 1977 or '78 with ex-T&P 610.

When we arrived in Lexington the day before the trip both the train and engine were "turned" the wrong way, facing north instead of south. I was one of several crew members sleeping on the train. In the pre-dawn hours I awakened to movement of the equipment. After getting dressed, I headed for one of the open coaches and found we were headed south down the "Rathole" with the 610 running about 50 m.p.h. TENDER FIRST. The train was turned on the wye, I think it was Danville KY, and headed back to Lexington the same way. Once back, 610 ran around the train and coupled to the headend, and we were ready for the three-day trip to Greensboro NC. A notable "guest" on the early morning trip to turn engine and train was none other than David P. Morgan and his wife.

The next day provided an adventure when the 610 threw an eccentric crank pin while running along the French Broad River near Newport TN. A search for the missing pin came up empty and the crew had to make a new one at the local blacksmith shop - but not before the "smithy" finished watching Walter Cronkite and the Evening News. Still, nothing was quite like that tender-first run down the mainline with the big 2-10-4. Or is that 2+10+4 DPM?

hcastle@rcn.com

How many of you remember the 611's debut trip on Labor Day weekend 1982? After the run to Norfolk from Roanoke on Saturday, we had to pulled back on Sunday with diesels. The 611 could not be turned in Norfolk and had to return to Roanoke BACKWARDS at some really slow speed...

TVRM Shop Updates
aw90h@cs.com

I remember it very well. My wife and I rented a car and drove down with another couple, and we saw the train come back behind some VERY grungy GE's. I did not know until the next morning that 611 had indeed made it back to Roanoke in time to take us all back to Alexandria the next day.

kevingillespie@usa.net

Someone posted earlier about the old BM&R days when 425 and 2102 ran backwards at a good clip. I remember that also. As I remember, they pulled the train backwards out of Temple and ran forward headed in. Since their track was built for high-speed running, I do have that memory of 425 and 2102 running probably around 40-45 backwards.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

> Someone posted earlier about the old
> BM&R days when 425 and 2102 ran
> backwards at a good clip. I remember that
> also. As I remember, they pulled the train
> backwards out of Temple and ran forward
> headed in. Since their track was built for
> high-speed running, I do have that memory of
> 425 and 2102 running probably around 40-45
> backwards.

2102, on one of its last main-line rambles under BM&R operation, ran all the way from Gettysburg, Pa. to Reading and Hamburg in reverse on the main line, hauling its passenger train. 1988, I think?

lner4472@bcpl.net

Pere Marquette 1225 seems to work just fine in reverse on passenger trains over the 70 miles between Owosso and Clare, Michigan. This engine has a Franklin radial buffer between the engine and tender, and an aggressive centering device on the trailing truck that probably exerts as much centering force as the similar device on a pilot truck. Seeing around the wide tender is really no different than seeing around the long boiler.

I have heard of 4-6-2's with primitive trailing trucks that exerted no centering effect having problems backing over long distances. Trouble showed up in elevated bearing temperatures thought to be attributable to the truck or whole engine cocking to one side as it backed, but I can't remember in which axle this happened. It's interesting to read of T&P 610 backing at high speed; presumably its articulated trailing truck has some sort of centering device to prevent it from cocking as it pushes the weight of the tender ahead of it.

For persons who want to see what a 2-8-4 looks like backing up a long ways, this operation will be repeated on June 22 on a public trip for Lake Central rail excursions.

Aarne H. Frobom
The Steam Railroading Institute
P. O. Box 665
Owosso, MI 48867-9665

froboma@mdot.state.mi.us

Mark,

As I recall, Canadian National restricted switch engines and engines without trailing trucks running backwards to 30 mph. As mentioned previously, you also have to watch for oscillation in the tender when running backwards. I know of one local accident in the Grand Trunk era caused by this sort of thing. I guess it will also come down to the quality of track on which you are running.

jason.whiteley@sympatico.ca

Mark,

My memory must be going! According to a book "Steam at Oakville" by Al Paterson & Dick George, CN's speed restriction as outlined above was 25 mph, not 30.

jason.whiteley@sympatico.ca

> My understanding was the German
> "Kriegslok" (50 and 52 class)
> 2-10-0s could run as well backwards as
> forwards. They had a tender with a narrow
> top; I assume the wear and riding
> characteristics running backward were good
> too; although I don't know why.

James,

I've seen class 52s used in local freight service running backwards in the 60s, on a commuter line on the west side of Hamburg. Half way along that line there is a dead-end station with no wye, so backward running is a must. This job was usually held down by 0-10-0T class 82 or 94 engines. The freight trains served an oil pier and power station near the end of the line. I suppose they probably ran up to about 20-25 mph where the speed had to be timed to fit into the commuter train schedule, in particular on the single-track outer half of the line.

I also remember, but could not find it that quickly now, a photo in one of my railroad books of either a 2-8-2 class 41 or 2-10-0 class 44 running backwards on the point of a freight train. I don't remember anything mentioned about its speed.

I think attention to the trackwork plays a big role in how fast one could afford to go backwards. On that count, European tracks seem to have been better built both from what I remember seeing there and here, and from the more widespread use of truck-less engines in road service.

Cheers, Jochen

JochenTrost@cs.com