Isn't this a paper tiger? They do run steam, just not as much as some fans seem to demand. They still run more mainline steam than most other groups I can name. For that matter they run more steam than a lot of other groups.

A number of organizations were able to field steam engines 20 years ago, but can't currently. I don't want to bother naming places, because I am not trying to attack them, but I can think of several groups that can only field half as many engines as they could in the 1980s.

Not that there are not valid things to criticize, but I think a lot of these criticisms seem misplaced.

Here's why I said what I said. The rusting, rotting, wrecks (aliteration unintentional) are at best disspiriting and in no sense convey the times in which they were in use. They detract from the parts of the collection that are in reasonable shape and reasonably interpreted. Why would anyone pay the price of admission to see CPR 2929 reduced to such a sad state?
That said, and I think you'll have to credit me with personal knowledge, the process of rehabilitation of even one piece of equipment is daunting in terms of time (in my case 15 years) and money (uncountable). The equipment formerly at Tobyhanna has never to my knowledge been touched. Steamtown has been in place in Scranton for 25 years. The pictures suggest strongly that most of it is beyond salvage. I would turn the question around and ask why anyone thinks it can be or will be saved.

Seems to me that many good points have been made. IMHO the thing that sticks in so many folks craw about this particular institution is that it consumess approx. $6 MILLION/YEAR in our money and yet has precious little to show for it either in restoring some of the very interesting "rusting,rotting wrecks" now on public view (at least cover them or hide them), nor in a robust steam excursion operation.

In fairness to the truth, the place was created to essentially take a bankrupt private collection of rr equipment and use it as the catalyst to create a public attraction that would, a. create decent paying jobs in a very depressed economic area and b. bring an influx of tourists to Scranton. The fact that the medium was a collection of old rr equipment was coincidental.

The history of the place to date is that it has certainly succeeded in the job creation category and you could argue has to some degree succeeded in bringing a lot of folks into Scranton who otherwise would not have visited.

We serious steam lovers are upset as we know what "we" could accomplish with $6 MILLION/YEAR in terms of equipment restoration/excursions,but that's not what the place was created for and that's just the facts of life.


IMHO-Ross Rowland

Does Steamtown have a publicly available list of equipment they would like to see deaccessioned? If this information is available, some of the problem might literally "go away".

Obviously I'm thinking of surplus Canadian engines I'd like to see repatriated, but I'm sure there would be the odd American engine that would be well served by going home to its former stomping grounds too.

Steve Hunter
Cardinal, Ontario

Gentlemen, please......

6 million sounds like a lot of money, but it can evaporate real fast just maintaining the shop and dealing with the overhead charges incidental to undertaking multiple large restoration projects - especially when encumbered with additional incidental requirements such as historic documentation. What were the documentation costs for the B&O 4-4-0?

Over 900,000 was reputedly spent restoring an already running 0-4-0T at another site in the southeast. this was a private contractor working for a nonprofit public / private partnership.

Sure, private sector practices might streamline some of this and lead to some greater efficiencies, but that isn't the system in place - and given it is a National Historic Site, perhaps the system in place is appropriate for that purpose, even if costly and cumbersome.

My take is the rusting junk in the yard is the best way they have now to provide some context - a yard full of stuff on wheels. Probably there is no decent representative set of freight cars that would more accurately represent the yard as it actually was available, or the resources available to get them even if there was. Whether this is better than an empty yard is open for discussion.

dave

Last time I was at Steamtown, there WAS an "NKP" GP-7 moving- kind of interesting, but not the steam the website promised that day.

I'm not so sure rusting hulks don't have some place in a museum setting. I remember a trip about 10 years ago when I visited the bright, shiny California State RR museum, and then the not-so-visually-impressive Golden Gate RR museum in the space of two days. I probably had more fun tramping around the unrestored equipment at GGRM (with my own one-on-one tour guide) than I did looking at the grandly-restored but somehow sterile exhibits at CSRM. Not that it's everyone's cup of tea. Perhaps museums could keep unrestored equipment accessible to the die-hards, but just not in direct view of the general public.

the 514 is a real Nickel Plate GP-9.

The purpose of Steamtown is to tell the story of steam-part of that story is its demise.

Since the ubiquitous GP-9's chased Lima Berks into museums and scrappers and a key locomotive in the collection is NKP 759, its a pretty good important asset.

I manage a Federal agency program a very similar sized budget. A couple of key questions that pop into my mind are if the $6m figure includes:

* Civil service employees (FTEs);
* Any tax from either NPS HQ or DOI
(for example, does the park get "taxed" by Interior for IT, personnel, services, etc);

FTEs and contractors can chew through this sized budget really fast.

That said, it will all come down to the leadership and the creativity of the leadership. It is difficult for me to believe they can't carve out $2-100k or so a year for cosmetic/stabilization work. For some, it might be more sexy to spend it on some large screen displays or other similar stuff.

Bob

Maybe, just maybe, now that our fellow steamlover Jerry Joe Jacobson has enjoyed the great good fortune to sell his railroading empire to the folks at G&WRR for $219 MILLION in cash, we could talk him into making a deal with the Feds to take S'town off their hands for a nominal fee with the promise that he'd keep it open and running for x years???

It's got a great shop, terrific excursion potential and plenty of room (once the junk is gotten rid of) for his locomotive and car collection??

Stranger things have happened!!

Ross Rowland

I stopped by Steamtown last week for the first time in many years and came away with an overall favorable impression. I don't care to engage in the political or theoretical debates, but a couple of observations:

First, Steamtown is a big place and it takes money to open the doors, turn on the lights, keep the restrooms clean, give tours, answer questions, and that's all before fixing and operating equipment. There's a lot of structural overhead here that smaller institutions don't have.

Second, from what I can see, the restoration work Steamtown does is done right, which doesn't come cheap. This includes abatement of hazards including asbestos and lead paint, things that our neighborhood weekend warrior train museums often ignore (at their peril).

Third, Steamtown has quietly been putting money into things people don't see, including major truck rebuilds on the coach fleet (with roller bearing conversions), safety appliances, steps, etc. My impression is that once this program is done, more effort will be expended on cosmetics.

There are naturally restrictions, inefficiencies, and politics that come with being a part of the federal government, but that's life and I accept Steamtown for what it is.

I was told that a prior attempt to deaccession equipment resulted in a several cases of new owners backing out of the deal and never moving the stuff. It's true that the yard has a few gems that may be lost forever, but you can't save everything.

If you want to see what they are capable of, take a look at the restored CNJ combine which is now on the yard shuttle train. Magnificent, inside and out. The Baldwin 0-6-0 is getting heavy repairs including straightening the frame and a new firebox.

I stopped by with a specific mission and found the staff very friendly, helpful and accommodating. They really went out of their way to show me what I wanted to see, and gave up part of their lunchtime to do so.

Alan Maples

Alan, I agree what they have done is awesome. The roundhouse and its displays are is great shape. Can more be done YES!!! I wrote both my congressmen about Steamtown and told them the same thing. I didn't get to see the shops but I feel that if they can get some money from our government to finish off the rest of the locomotives and select the rolling stock they want they could make Steamtown into a top-notch place. I'm in the military and know to well the cut back in money so I know what they are facing. My squadron is thinking about a road trip on a Sat. to go up and help out. Still working on that.