We have two active related threads concerning Steamtown NHS…

These have evolved into a debate between two long time members, Ross, and Superheater.

Both have defined points of view. Both have been moderated in the past for statements about this and other subjects.

This is evolving into a debate about how each views the Steamtown project, government involvement in railroad preservation, its cost, and its possible future direction.

One member has posted an alert about the discussion, a second has suggested locking the thread. In the past we have been quick to lock this discussion. This time I am trying to let it live, and hopefully come to some level of resolution. In the past it has devolved into name calling. So far, this time it hasn’t crossed the line.

Steamtown, as a National Park Service project, with the significant backing of the Federal government has been subject to criticism as pork barrel spending. It has been criticized as a user of significant Federal funds.

One of the members is apparently a volunteer there. We know little about him, but I am in private conversation with him, and can assure you he exists in the real (railroad preservation) world. The second is a owner/operator of a mainline steam loco (I am also in private conversation with him.) He has been subject criticism for business practices, but has also served on the Amtrak board of directors. This gentleman was reportedly rebuffed by Steamtown when he proposed locating his locomotive there, and may harbor ill feeling from that.

As your friendly moderator, I would like this discussion to go on, with the goal of airing each party’s issues. I hope others can offer additional information. I would like to see a budget for the site… showing costs for railroad operations, visitor services, site maintenance, and interpretive services... I suspect that many of us may be surprised at what a museum can spend for things like cleaning restrooms and mowing lawns, outside our common railroad preservation functions, but critical to a large museum.

Private messages welcome. Please feel welcome to participate. Please try to follow our rules.

Randy,

I applaud your position on the Steamtown discussion and agree that though some may not like a debate, the airing of opinion and some dirty laundry is actually very productive in the arena of ideas as long as we do not devolve into personal attacks (or, here on the internet, flaming). As I have said before, though I am a strong supporter of Steamtown and have friends as current and retired employees, as a government entity it is open all the scrutiny and public debate any citizen cares to give. Do I think there could be improvements in efficiency? Of course, because government is inherently inefficient. Does the NPS do a reasonable job of providing interpretation of steam railroading to the general public? Probably better than most. Conservation and preservation to NPS standards is quite a task as the agency has some of the highest standards in the world - rightfully so... this is the US of A, after all.

I am curious to see more about the management structure and the actual budget numbers... I suppose that the budget info is out there on net should anyone care to do the research. I'll look in the morning.

Best to all,
Mike Brown


BTW, if ya'll think this is a fur fest, wait till Saracudda goes hunting for O'Biden... but that's another subject... though he is from Scranton - wonder why he left...

One of the absolute hottest things in governmental financial management (if there is such a thing) is "transparency". A couple of states, have implemented on-lin expenditure applications, but that sort of thing is in its infancy. Part of it is because government is so big, so pervasive that in order to function, a "once size fits all" solution doesn't work, but its a unified, integrated system that allows that.

There's also manifest differences between government accounting and commercial accounting. The differences will intensify if the SEC, Big 4 Accounting Firms and large multinationals get their way and force us to accept International Standards

Here's a source for understanding the differences between (state and local) goverments and commercial accounting.

GASB White Paper: Why Governmental Accounting and Financial Reporting Is—and Should Be—Different

available (free) at www.gasb.org

However, the topic of the moment is fedeal and federal accounting is governed by the Federal Accounting Standards Advisory Board. (FASAB)

My thanks to Randy Hees for both his thoughts (with which I agree) and for allowing the discussion to play itself out.

My guess is that with what's going on in the financial world that the Feds are about to impose draconian budget cuts upon all "non-essential" branches of the Federal gummit, and that if I'm proven correct that will result in huge ramifications across the board.

This might well result in the outsourceing of Scranton's operation as a cost cutting necessity???

Time will tell. Ross Rowland

The National Park Service has their Budget Justifications (Greenbooks) online here in adobe acrobat (.pdf) file format:
National Park Service: Greenbook Downloads
Since these Greenbooks cover the budget of the entire National Park Service, the files are large -- the FY2009 Greenbook is 19.8 megabytes.

To get Steamtown's numbers, you'll have to download the entire file(s), open it in an Acrobat file reader, then keyword search for Steamtown. While this is cumbersome, I think it is a useful exercise for others to go through -- skimming through the entire Greenbook will show you just how many other needs the NPS system has.

Links on the page explain the NPS and Federal budget processes.

I hope this helps.

Chris, Thanks for that constructive suggestion. I would ask that someone here who is computer competent (unlike me) obtain the numbers for Steamtown and ascertain (if that's possible from how the numbers are shown) how much of the $5 millionplus/year is allocated to payroll. Seems to me that number is a key to how the place could be much more efficiently operated in the private sector. Also, it would be instructive if it also shows the total staff and thier respective salary&overhead numbers.

Thanks, Ross Rowland

Hi Ross,

On Page 267, the 2009 Greenbook says that Steamtown had 62 FTE ("Full Time Equivalents") during 2007. I don't know if more detailed salary information is publicly available or not. I suspect that the exact salaries of specific employees are confidential, but you should be able to find out the salary range that each position falls within.

In your other posts, you have mentioned dollar figures for how much you think it would cost a private operator to run the site for a year. I suspect that you are underestimating the amount of employees it takes to keep the site open for visitors. Steamtown is open for 362 days a year, closing only on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years Day. During January, February and March, the site is open and staffed from 10 am to 4 pm; the rest of the year, it is open and staffed from 9 am to 5 pm. I presume that Steamtown's annual budget includes all the costs necessary to keep the park open and staffed during those hours.

I also presume that Steamtown's annual budget also includes the cost of having federal law enforcement officers protecting the site. You could probably save a lot of money by replacing them with rent-a-guards, but it wouldn't be the same since the guards would not have the power to chase and arrest law-breakers. Even hiring off-duty state troopers and/or county and city police officers would not be the same. While I have tremendous respect for the troopers of local officers, they have a different mission and different expertise than those federal officers dedicated to the NPS mission.

Anyway, I hope the 62 FTE figure helps you. Best of luck with your proposals!

Since I am a liberal by dictionary definiton (one with an open mind) I love to hear other's opinions on any and all subjects since their line of thinking may just be on a different plane than mine and offer a different outlook and therefore a different approach and idea. After all, isn't that what boards such as these are about.

And who said Steamtown falls into the category of pork barrel spending? I thought things like bridges to nowhere and stupid wars fell into that category, not entertainment venues.

Later!
Mr. Ed

As someone who ran a government owned steam tourist railroad for 17 years I suggest everyone go back and read Randy Gustafson's post in the Steamtown Debate Challenge thread. It is the best description I've seen of the difficulties involved. I have only two comments to add. When working for a government agency it is far more important to comply with policies, rules, and regulations than to achieve any tangible results. Trying to explain the realities of running a steam railroad to politicians is like trying to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time, and annoys the pig!

"When working for a government agency it is far more important to comply with policies, rules, and regulations than to achieve any tangible results."

I work for local government entity. You are 110% correct. I might
add that results are usually of little import. That isnt the game.

Full airing of views on this subject are a good thing and am glad
to see them proceeding.

I've worked for private, public and a good working partnership and a totally disfunctional partnership of the two - which is why I'm pleased if some real ideas get born of this heretofore tiresome repetition of broad positions.

dave

Yeah, the War on Poverty was/is stupid...

The government budget-------Here I go again.

Gentlemen,
I stated before I'm in the military an enlisted sergeant E-8 and I'm the boss of a shop with an annual budget of 15K. I’m sorry to say it this way but it seems you guys are not getting the point when I tell you about dealing with a government budget. We get that money each quarter through out the year not in one lump sum. So you can see the problem there. Now some of you may say well that you but we all go to government training regardless of your job in the US government. It the same training. I don’t have an emergency budget if something that breaks and I can’t cover it with the quarter budget. Here is an example of what I have going on right now and I’m fighting with the budget office to get some extra money to fix it, a simple roll up garage door. Its damaged, where we can’t get it open. It’s been like this for 6 months and still no money to fix it, great huh?
Now that 15K can only be spent on specific things. I don’t have aircraft to repair so my budget is easy. That 15K can only spent on what is called non-flying supplies. So if I need a pair of boots I can use it for that. Also I can only spend it on things that are on the approved list. But if I needed money for an aircraft part I can’t use that money, it has to come from another budget---Flying money. These two budgets cannot share money between each other. If one is empty well too bad you have to wait to get more money even if you had enough in the other. Sorry to keep repeating this but when you guys talk about the money its not easy for us in the government to use it the way you guys in the private sector do. I could only imagine how much hard it is for a government agency that is all alone in taking care of a place like Steamtown.

I still say if you guys want to help write your congressmen. Tell them about the conditions at Steamtown. We here have spent so much energy debating this we all could have written a essay to our congressmen. Also the energy spent we could have all met at Steamtown and finished #26 re-assemble, . All this talk is cheap but if you guys want action its time to do something lets write or volunteer.

Mr. Rowland, have you asked Steamtown to park your 614 there in recent months? They may hesitate about since the disaster with the K-4 still in the bay. A nice gesture by Steamtown but they got blasted for something they didn’t do or have anything to do with. They got the short end of the stick on that one---a bay tied up, broken machinery from a contractor, and took all the heat for the project.

Steve B.

Get the boots (or any other marketable product) and trade them for plane parts. Has been done in the service since the Roman legions.

dave

This discussion of government spending reminds me of several local school systems that were dumping all the left over classroom supplies in the trash at the end of the year so that there would be no reduction in their budget the next year because of having left over items ready and available to use.

PC