From the UTU web site:

http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news ... leID=43876

I hope exemptions will be forthcoming.

PTC required by 2012 and on most rail lines? That is going to result in the early retirement of a lot of locomotives, because the cost of the onboard electronics exceeds the value of a lot of the older motive power. And that is only a small part of the total expense. The track transponder system is expensive and requires maintenance, and the periodic inspections and calibration of the systems add to the locomotive maintenance costs. And it should be interesting to see how the ACSES system gets adapted to a steam locomotive. Hope you can find room on board for a very large stainless steel box with a lot of electronics in it.

PC

If you think PTC will be implemented on the RRs by 2012, I have a 4-8-4 sitting at the bottom of a quarry to sell you...

When we installed PTC on the 614 in 1998 it then had a price tag of approx. $145,000. Our system was engineered/installed by Union Switch&Signal Co. and a lot of the work involved intergrating the microprocessor or "brain" into the 26L brake system.

Some modifications were needed to make it function properly on a steam engine vs. the diesel/electrics it was designed for, but at the end of the day it worked perfectly.

Ross Rowland

Widespread use will result in economies of scale and the price per unit will be reduced. We've all seen it over and over with everything from microwave ovens, vcrs, dvd players, and personal GPS equipment.

To clarify the discussion, the PTC technology that is addressed in the legislation is not the system Ross has on the 614, it is the ACSES system used on the Northeast Corridor that went into service in 2000. This is identified in the article.

PC

Ross & PC:
My understanding of PTC is that on a diesel, a block signal violation would cause the locomotive brakes to apply, stopping the train, and I assume the locomotive would return to idle? Most deadmen operate this way, don't they? If this is correct, how would that apply to a steamer? I'm sure the electronics could work well with the brake system to make an application, like Ross mentioned, but how would the PTC shut the throttle? Just curious. Thanks.
Seth

On the 614 we mounted a switch on the throttle quadrant at about the 1/4 position so that if the ATC system called for the power to be "shut-off" this switch sent a message to the brain that the throttle had been closed. As one needs to continue some steam flow to maintain lubrication until the train stops we chose the 1/4 position to achieve that end.

The system is so programmed that it will make a penalty full service brake application under certain situations such as exceeding permitted speed past a certain signal aspect etc. Trust me, with a full service application your going to stop promptly no matter where the throttle is set!!

We found the system to be very reliable and having a cab signal indicator aboard was very nice especially on foggy days!!

Ross Rowland

In answer to Seth's question, and adding to the information that Ross has provided, in contrast with older systems that make a penalty application if you run a signal or exceed the overspeed setting, the ACSES system (the technology that is the subject of the legislation) is "anticipatory". What that means in practical terms is that ACSES knows the speed permissions assigned to the territory and monitors your speed and location. If a situation develops where you are in danger, it knows the deceleration rate of your equipment during brake application and will take preemptive action to stop you short of a collision. The point at which it takes action depends on your speed, the faster you are going the further in advance it takes action. And unlike older systems, ACSES has the capability to interface with other equipment that is on the property as well as act on restrictions imposed by the dispatcher in response to an emergency. In the case of a passenger train approaching a signal at high speed, if the engineer does not take appropriate action far enough in advance to observe the signal based on the speed, distance to the signal, and deceleration rate of the equipment, ACSES will take independent action to regulate the train safely before it gets to the signal. And the application of ACSES system speed restrictions is not limited by signal blocks either, specific sections of track can be coded for lower speed based on MofW or other activities.

ACSES is produced as an "add-on" system for locomotives that already had a cab signal system installed, and it is also being built into a combined ACSES and cab signal system, all in one enclosure, that can be installed on new units and can also be applied to locomotives that did not previously have cab signal equipment.

If ACSES were to be applied to a steam locomotive, it is possible that the throttle could be actuated by a servo motor that would allow the engineer's control to be overridden by ACSES if the situation required it.

PC

The CSX RF&P sub has a version of PTC, nowhere near as sophisticated, just called "Train Control". When a train on the RF&P passes a signal displaying a less than Clear indication, an additional audible warning sounds after the one for downgrading the aspect as as the train passes the wayside signal if the train's speed exceeds the allowable speed for the new aspect (15-restricting, 25-approach, 45-approach medium/limited). The system takes into account how fast the train is moving and the rate of deceleration. On CRT screen equipped units, a countdown clock shows time-to-penalty, which can speed up, slow down, or count back up depending on whether or not the train is decelerating fast enough to satisfy the computer. If the engineer feels like testing the system, he can see how close to catching a penalty he can take the clock before reaching the new max speed. We called it "playing the video game".

A lot of engineers do not like the system, because it can force you to take more drastic action than you think you should have to to get the speed down. On older Geeps, you basically had six seconds to take action before the system would throw you into penalty. So, even if you knew the train ahead of you was about to clear the next block from what was being said on the radio, you'd have to take a big chunk of air out, slow down way too much, and then struggle to get back up to speed. It's great that it is fail safe, and certainly can save lives, but it's not smarter than an experienced engineer on top of his game (which none of us are at 0300).

Branches of English main line railways have had push-pull passenger trains where the driver in passenger cab car controls the STEAM loco when it's pushing! I think the term is "auto equipped". So, the technology did exist for fine remote control of a steam engine.
Automatic Train Stop, often in conjunction with cab signals, has been used on some American steam engines, sometimes even using a trackside trip arm to break a glass air tube in the brake system.

That doesn't matter. It's not about the value of the equipment. It's about the value the work the equipment can do.

By 2000, the San Francisco Municipal Railway was scrapping their worst Boeing LRVs as fast as new Breda LRVs arrived. They were choosing that time to install a new ATO system in the subway, as the old system was as decrepit as the Boeings. ATO (Automatic Train Operation) will actually drive the train, stopping at stations, opening and closing doors, etc. The new ATO system was ready to go online before there were enough Bredas to protect the commute. So they were forced to install ATO on their "best" remaining Boeings. (which wasn't saying much).

Within a year the Bredas arrived and the Boeings were retired. Within another year, WRM went shopping for an LRV to preserve, using the same "best remaining" criteria that selected the ATO recipients. Not surprisingly they got an ATO equipped one.

Sorry, I was under the impression that this discussion was about equipment operating nationwide, not just the San Francisco Municipal Railway. Many major operators retire locomotives early for mechanical and electrical failures that are considerably less expensive than the cost of installing the combined ACSES / Cab Signal equipment.

PC