I have an open and honest question to ask. If you have had a terrible experience with a railcar restoration firm how can you make other preservationists aware without putting yurself at risk of being accused of "flaming" or "attacking"?

I was part of a project that resulted in the destruction and loss of key historic components and much work was paid for that was either never done or shoddily done. Other parties have been caught in the same snare. Can we not post a warning?

That almost sonds like the deal with PRR K-4 1361 projet.

Len.

No...everybody knows about that bad experience. This one is not as obvious. PM me and I will tell you.

I was directly involved...right on the firing line.

And with all due despect the firm is not trying to patch things up with the customer. It would be nice if they did, but they haven't.

Underbidding seems to be the start of many failed projects. Does anybody "hard bid" railcar restorations anymore? Has a pre-bid job ever come out right? How does a responsible firm handle the situation when they realize they have underbid a job?

Can't speak for anybody other than msyelf - I almost always refused to firm bid any large, complex restoration job because until the job is about 75% done, its size and shape are pretty nebulous. Alternative is to bid so high that any worst case scenario is covered. this pretty much cancels any successful bid, because wel meaning guys who don't have a clue will bid lower because "How hard could it be?" only to be caught short about halfway through. The worst problems I have had was trying to help friends get projects done on the shoestring, making the necessary compromises to get them done, then losing friends because the quality wasn't as high as they had hoped - still, they got more than they paid for.............other nightmares are municipal and academic decision makers / overseers who are truly ignorant and can't even write a bid that makes sense, much less administer one........ and communication problems, which can arise even among experienced people when dreams collide with reality. If you are stuck on a firm bid, either expect to take the higher bid from the best most qualified contractor instead of the lower bids from the wannabees, or expect to get boinked in the result.

All I've ever been able to do in terms of remediation is keeping the funding agent constantly updated as situations occur, then working out mutual solutions - which is fine if that is the process agreed upon in the first place.

Hanlon's razor: Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained as incompetency. I'd bet there is as much fault to be found in the bid and management process as in the execution.

dave

Restoration is certainly unlike other bidding. When we did an RFQ on a depot, we had six construction firms bid. The range of pricing and interpretatiion of work was amazing. We set up a committee composed of two State Parks personnel and three railroad volunteers. All bids were carefully evaluated and by secret rating and voting we all selected a winner. All the T&C were included in the contract with the understanding there could very well be changes during construction, and there were a few, but not many.

On the restoration side, we bid low based a one time evaluation of a diesel locomotive restoration. Once the work began the true extent of the work needed was discovered. The choice was to do the job properly or paint over it. Our folks did the job properly, and went back to the owner for consideration and more funding. Unfortunately we had approved a contract in favor of the owner. We had to eat a lot of the cost, but in the end we did get some additional monies from the owners.

Today that locomotive is running on the Georgetown Loop, and is their most productive engine. Our folks, though seldom noted when refering to the Loop can hold their heads up high due to their fine workmanship.

Bottom line, if you are a bidder don't expect to make a killing if you are gonna do a reputable job, and work with the owners. If you are the owner carefully select the bidder. Typically you get what you pay for. Make sure you are prepared for unforeseen circumstances throughout the work.

Just my humble opinion.

dan

Having paid the bills for the restoration of 3 mainline steam locos and approx. 15 cars I guess I'm qualified to comment??

Based upon my personal journey EVERY restoration of a piece of railroad rolling stock is a UNIQUE project unto itself and the ONLY time you'll know how difficult ( a.k.a.costly) it's going to be is when it's FINISHED.

Seems to me that taking on any railway restoration project on any basis other than time& materials is foolhardy in the extreme and almost certain to end unhappily. An experienced accomplished contractor can certainly share the real facts of what other similiar projects have cost (subject to recieving permission from the client) to give a prospective client a possible range of what to expect. BUT this is only a "range" with the critical caveat that EVERY project is unique and impossible to precisely estimate until it is completed!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

I am going to have to agree with both prior posters. Railroad projects are just too big and too complex to make bids on.

In this case the museum that accepted the bid had no railcar experience so it seemed reasonable to them. The people who made the bid should have known better. I actually suspect malice on their part because there were a number of underbid projects in their lot with weeds growing around them. I witnessed some of those "lost causes" being converted into ongoing commercial ventures. I saw parts from unit "A" being used to restore unit "B" when I know unit "A" was built with funds from yet another underbid project.

I wonder aloud what would have happened to our project had we not had the finances to go in and rescue our car? Would parts of it have been used to restore another project? We know enough brass was "lost" from the car to keep the lights on for a week or help make payroll.

Let me help solve Termite7's problem. He is speaking of Edwards Rail Car and the Wisconsin restoration, for the Ringling Museum. I resent his hiding behind a posting name. I will be the first to admit that ERC did not live up to everything with that particular deal. It was under bid and then the museum wanted to change the scope of work...about 6 times...each time increasing the cost of the project. Did we get in over our heads...YOU BET. Missing brass...our shop is in the middle of the west side of Montgomery, last summer there was a rash of theft, dozens of businesses in our area...gangs of thugs stealing everything copper and brass. Our shop was not left off that list. It is really unfair for Termite to suggest that we sold the stuff to keep the lights on. Has ERC had the same "under bid" problem with other projects...YES. In every case we have tried our hardest to make things right with our customers. Some we can and some we can't. But none the less, we could have thrown our hands up many years ago and closed down...instead we have tried to work with everyone and make things as right as we can. If termite wants to say who he is, so we can determine if he was a player in the Ringling job, or is he just an unhappy party trying to cause ERC further problems? I totally resent his assertions about "other weed grown projects" in our yard. Presently we have three, weed grown car bodies that belong to us, but may look like over grown cars belonging to someone else. Equipment swap....does Termite7 have any real knowledge of the intimate details of arrangements with other ERC cutomers? We did have a problem with one project, where the appointed project manager was informed of swapping one pair of trucks for another that would be more suited for his car...this "project manager" was representing a City and did not inform them of the swap...so, of course when the City found out we were accused of chicanery AND when the PM was grilled, he said he new nothing about it. Go figure. It is no secret that ERC has had its problems....have we tried to purposely cheat or screw a customer...NO WAY...under bid, not been able to keep time lines, promises, etc...as I have stated...YOU BET. We are not quitters and in every case we have tried to make the situation right....the best we can. So my friends (or detractors)....what should we do? Just shut down and make some, like Termite7, happy? Or should we try to do everything we can to make amends with past customers AND most of all learn from our mistakes. I do not expect a "pass" on any problems ERC has caused. So, here we have an ERC project that is working out and we have a car testing on the C&TS. I was pleased to post this info and pictures on the one website I respect the most. Seems Termite7 is not happy with this and will not be happy until some sort of retribution is put forth on ERC. What is the point? I cannot change the past and I truly regret the past problems...so, when does ERC get a chance to make better? Termite7...YOU ARE A COWARD hiding behind a phony name...if you had any real issues, why would you not email me and ask and hear it first hand??? There are always two sides to every story.
I do not discount any hard or bad feelings with anyone that has a problem with ERC or myself. Honest communication is all that I ask....I sure have been working hard at doing that myself.

Steven Torrico, Pres.
Edwards Rail Car Co.
334-294-0848

Termite7 says:

"I have never met Steven Torrico." But he sounds like a guilty man...doesn't he?
Sometimes confession is a good way to cleanse the soul and release some inner demons. I hope he made a police report when all the copper and brass was stolen from his shop. It is a shame when that type of thing happens. With police involvement we might catch some of those bad guys.

Termite7 seeks no retribution...Termite7 wants to steer people who might get thmeselves into a difficult situation by dealing with somebody who is clearly not capable of restoring a railcar. It clearly begins with the shopping phase. You have to get numerous bids. And as the pros on this board have mentioned...hard bids on choo choo projects are just impossible to come by. The cost may not be obvious until you get into the project.

Another point...look at how the shop deals with historic parts and materials. You cannot go to Home Depot and replace those materials. If the shop makes practice of pulling off parts and throwing them into piles and allows paint to splatter on them...then they are not quailified to restore a railroad car. Each part should be photographed and labled. There should be logs made of the location and status of each and every piece. Rare parts need to be locked sucerely in a cage or vault. We saw our parts heaped on piles of junk from other stalled projects...we saw rare glass and wooden parts broken beyond use. We found piles of saw dust, paint overspray and water damage on our parts. If the people who accepted the bid had seen this type of operation before than perhaps they would have gone elsewhere.

Agreed?

With any restoration, even when the contractor has done it a thousand times there are always unforeseen things that come up. During my time in the power plant industry it was pretty much a rule of thumb to budget another 20% above the bid as a reserve for change orders and hidden problems. As for theft of materials. I would fully expect that anything stolen while in custody of the contractor to be replaced in kind. The car done for Bay Creek seems to be well done but I did not get to talk with the guys there about how she runs. Nobody is happy when a project goes South. The botched restoration of a certain K-4 is a prime example. At least this project is at a better place the aforementioned K-4.

As for termite not using a real name. There are a number of good reasons to do so. I am not seeing any wild accusations or flaming. It is obvious he is not happy with the job done on the Ringling car. There are a number of people here who do not want to be bombarded with questions, have a job that is sensitive about postings online, or just like to not have their name out there. I don't have a problem with using a handle and not a real name.

It's important to keep in mind that most people who make their living in rail preservation could probably earn a better living working in industry. I don't think anyone in rail preservation is socking loads away in big fat bank accounts. It's also important to remember that dollars for preservation are hard to come by and need to be spent in the way that puts them to best use.

When things go South learning from mistakes is often the only thing left to be gained. I think Steve's acknowledgment of problems with the job is more than many would do. I guess the question is how is ERC making good on those points where they admit they could have done better. Maybe that is not something to be openly discussed here but I am sure that discussion needs to happen at some level.

Another good point is security...if a potential customer can walk into a shop and nobody stops them...or even makes eye contact...that is not a secure shop. Look at the building and if the fence is either "pulled down" or has holes big enough for a grizzly bear to walk through...it is not secure. Do not assume that the minute your project arrives anything wil change.

Which brings me to another point...off-site management. If the manager cannot be found on site then very likely the people in the shop will be working on their own. Those people might mean well but they without guidance they will not know what they are doing. We found the workers on our project had no idea what they were working on...no histric or even working knowledge. They were nice enough and good at what they did but they had no idea what they were to acheive. The Mexican guys were great too, very hard working. Too bad most of their efforts were misguided and had to be redone. An on-site manager could have prevented all of that.

It looks like we are assembling a guide for a potential shopper for a railcar restoration project. Do we have any other suggestions or comments?

To Tom: I could easily leave my name but it would mean nothing to Steve Tirrica or whoever he is because I have never met him and have no idea who he is. I was hired to do a job which I did. I had a lot of interesting conversations with the boots on the ground. Flame away...I know where the truth lies and as a strict preservationist I was horrifed at what was happening.

There are too many of these stories out there. Man (or lady) buys choo choo, man hires preservationist...man gets bill for untold thousands of $ and then gives up. The choo choo is pushed out in the weeds and never moves again.

Can we not construct a guide for potential restorers and post it permanently for all to read? If we can save even one choo choo...would it be worth the effort? Are we not here to preserve historical atrifacts???

Well.....this is what I get for trying to be honest and sincere....and in a public forum! I will now crawl back in to the hole I apparently came out of...according to Termite7 YIKES!

I feel somwhat qualified to comment as I was the General Manager for a railcar rebuilding company that failed after a year.
The point of estimated contracts is a very dangerous slippery slope.
We took on the rebuilding of a 1920's era Pullman into a private car that would be a static unit.
After many consultations and drawings were presented to the owner, a contract was agreed upon with a stated ceiling price. Work started promptly and it was soon discovered that many items were either grossly underbid or just not forseen. The person doing the bidding had over 20 years experience in this field but there were many surprises in this car.
It soon became evident that this project was going to be halted as the owner refused to put alot more dollars into the project.
The contract was voided and the bare shell sat for several years before being sold for basically scrap price.
The moral:
Rail car restoration is a very inexact science.
As distasteful as it may be, a cost + contract is about the only fair way and that takes very deep pockets. By incrementally bidding as work progresses, you can develope the full picture.
A full car or locomotive restoration can run over a million dollars in the open market.
If you think I am kidding, a new highway motor coach conversion of a bus can easily run $1-2M.
trolleyira
Ira Schreiber