Last week, we began installing the siding on our Lawndale boxcar. The custom knives which made the tongue and groove siding matched the old originals perfectly. Placing the siding is slow going, but naturally, we are eyeing the next steps, one of which is painting the car, which leads to my next request for advice.

The siding is bare cypress, which has been well-dried and indoor for the better part of the past year. We are all assuming that we should prime the car, and we will paint it with an oil-based paint. We will probably hand-brush it since that is likely how the railroad did it as well.

When the car is ultimately displayed, it will be under a roof, but the sides of the car barn will be open and will see the rising and setting sun. Should we get some sort of UV inhibitor mixed in with the paint before we apply it, or should we paint the car and then seal it with a protective coat of some UV inhibitor?

Thanks

Matt Bumgarner

I would mix an harder in the paint so it doesn't fade, I do that when I restore my old time farm tractors.

Len.

This one is a hard question to answer. First the paint years ago were lead based and formulated for longevity agaisnt the elements. Now the EPA has all the good stuff removed from paint even oil based products. Not to many years ago marine paints were the way to go but now the EPA has that product ruined as well.

Water based paints are probably as good as their oil based cousins. Brushing at least the primer coat is the best thing that you can do. Reason is that brushing will scrub the primer paint into the wood pores while spraying lays it on the surface. Final coat can be brushed or sprayed. The benefit, at this time, from either method is probably the same.

If using oil based paints penetrol and japan dryers can be added. read the instructions. These additives will help.

Hardener + metal good.....hardener + wood bad. Hardened paint does not like to flex and wood does naturally, why build in an adhesion problem?

My preference would be to go with a high quality primer, brushed in, possibly with some linseed oil or other penetrant / preservative included. Over this I'd use a high quality acrylic industrial paint, or if chalking isn't an issue, good house paint would be fine. Historically, 2 years was about what was the expected life span of a railroad car paint job, so we really can extend maintenance intervals even with mediocre modern paints.

dave

I would suggest looking into a combination of stains, or a good grade latex primer and paint.

My grandfather's house in Vermont, which I inherited, is sided with cedar clapboards. Paint would start to peel within 2 to 5 years. Another constant problem had been mold and mildew, as the house sits at the bottom of a hill, by a brook. I am also a part time house painter, and dealt with a client's home that had a similar problem.

In Vermont, first we scraped and pressure washed (very carefully) as much paint as we could from the surface of the wood. Then, with a scrub brush and highly diluted "Clorox", we washed the whole house. On my client's home, I used a "green" anti-mold and mildew cleaner, that will not damage surrounding plants.

After the wood had dried thoroughly, I nailed down loose boards, scraped any remaining loose paint, sanded the edges, and applied caulking and wood filler. An odd thing that I see time after time, is that scraped wood will give up even more paint the next day. Next we applied an oil based stain primer, and allowed it to dry thoroughly. On my clients home I applied "Kilz" primer in the worst spots, and used Glidden "Gripper" on the rest of the house. Both Gripper and Kilz (or similar primers) can be coated in one to four hours, but I recommend allowing the coat to dry at least 24 hours.

Next, on both projects, I double checked for loose boards, again sanded the edges of remaining paint, and made sure that flashing and such was secure, before applying the stain/paint. On our home we used a latex stain, and on the client's house I used a Glidden top coat. We applied two coats on our home, but my client only wanted one coat on his house.

It has been six years since we painted our home in Vermont, and the stain is holding up very well. The client's house has been sitting for three years, and has no chalking, with no hint of mildew or mold.

The Rutland boxcar #8050 at Steamtown was painted with stain in 1980. The last photo I saw of it was dated 2000 in PA, and while the wood was fairly weathered, the steel ends and appliances appeared to have held up very well. The stain that was used on this car was "K-mart" ( I think...), and the prior coat of paint had been applied when Riverside was set up in the mid-sixties.

My suggestion for wood cars is to do the job right the first time, and stay on top of pealing paint, touch ups, and be prepared to completely repaint the cars every five years.

Sorry for the length, hope this helps...

Romi Romano

"The Rutland boxcar #8050 at Steamtown was painted with stain in 1980. The last photo I saw of it was dated 2000 in PA, and while the wood was fairly weathered, the steel ends and appliances appeared to have held up very well. The stain that was used on this car was "K-mart" ( I think...), and the prior coat of paint had been applied when Riverside was set up in the mid-sixties."

I work for Sears Hardware , now that Sears and K-mart are own by Sears Holding Company , the brand they sell mostly is Martha Stuart and Wether beater . which are both water base paints

Good luck,
Len.

I would recommend allowing your siding to become acclimated at your restoration site for several weeks by stacking the materials in a dry location with spacers to ensure air flow around every board. Afterward, all surfaces of the wood should be primed to prevent the wood from picking up more moisture between installation and paining. This will also protect the less visible portions of the siding from moisture.

There is a lot of material online that addresses the technical matters associated with wood siding on houses. I would think that a lot of this is applicable to the issues discussed here.

I must disagree with most of the advice above. Railcars are not houses. Repaint every 5 years? Doesn't sound right to me.

Here's a great little book packed with info. 20 pages discussing what paint really is; 35 pages on surface prep; and 30 pages on how to actually paint. It's "about" boats but about 2/3 is directly relevant to railway preservation.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157409 ... 1574092235

The book is consistent with our practice at WRM.

If it were me doing your wooden car, I would use 2-part epoxy Awlgrip 545 primer. The first coat on bare wood, I'd cut it 25% with T0031 reducer for brush (that's 2 parts primer 2 parts converter 1 part reducer) to get it to soak in better (so says the manufacturer). If bondo/fairing is called for, I'd use a compatible compound such as Awl-Fair. Touchup where bare wood is re-exposed during sanding, then 1-2 more coats of Awlgrip 545 (not reduced). From there I'd use a finish coat of choice, as you can topcoat 2-part epoxy primers with just about anything. I'd go with a 2-part polyurethane. All of this would be brushed, or rolled and tipped out with brush. And read the safety documentation fully, which will go into the requirements for spraying among other things.

The key question all along is "When would I like to do this again"?

IME, the ruling factor (90%) of painting is surface prep. This is such an onerous job that I would think you'd agree "I never want to do this again!"

The two biggest things impacting service life will be quality of the paint system used, and the quality of whatever is underneath your finish coat. The best paint fails if painted over an older coating that has failed. Therefore, previous coatings must be gauged/tested before overcoating, and a failed coating MUST be removed. I've seen museums pour hundreds of volunteer hours into the thankless job of peeling off somebody else's poorly chosen and failed coating system.

Some folks are saying "all the new paints are no good anymore". I don't know about that. Older paints were single-part. Crack a can, paint out of the can, the paint dries like a salt pond. Two-part paints can actually transform into an entirely different chemical, like epoxy plastic. That's an evolution beyond anything that existed before.

The K-mart crowd will freak out at Awlgrip 545's list price of $150/gallon (it can be had for much less)... and you ain't even seen poly topcoat prices. OK, but what's your time worth? Paint prep is 90% of the job. "Free" isn't the answer because every hour you're doing paint prep is an hour you're NOT doing something more useful to the museum. Buying better paint is buying future volunteer hours.

The SPCRR uses good oil based exterior house paint, brushed on… We have had our best luck with Benjamin Moore paints.

Our secret, if there is one is in the way we have our paint mixed. Most modern paint match systems will mix a box car red (BCR) by starting with a purple base. Historically BCR was red oxide, yellow oxide and lamp black. If you can find a good paint mixer (probably not at your local big box store) who still can mix by eye, they will understand and mix from the traditional colors (admittedly using synthetic pigment). The result will fade in the same way the old paints did (it will fail differently) so it will age towards a greyer, paler red, while the purple based colors will fade to a really strange purple…

Robert Macdowell I think has described a candidate for best practice. I understand Seashore Trolley Museum uses this system as well. We've used it with success too, but there is no question it is a lot of work though much less than doing it twice. Any coating failures we've been able to identify ultimately get back to either a) poor preparation, or b) contamination during application such as a water drip.

Awgrip has a considerably longer life expectancy than even a good old fashioned lead-based industrial coating, especially regarding gloss retention.

To see an Awlgrip project, check out "Rehabiliation of White River Lumber Company Caboose 001 completed" here: http://www.trainmuseum.org/

Richard

Richard,

First, incredible job on that caboose! I am in the midst of a multiyear restoration/reconstruction of a Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh caboose, #280, at the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum and really appreciate seeing the great work others have done. Quite inspiring!

Since painting inside and out of this wood interior/wood clad exterior car will be a reality for us in the future, I was wondering if you could supply specifics on just what AwlGrip products (primer & topcoat) you used since from their website, they have quite a few.

Thanks!

Chris Hauf
R&GVRRM

Friendly moderators Hees has raised an interesting point about how a paint will look as it ages. There is much more to finish appearance than just color, and these other considerations should be a part of a restoration project. Another issue is whether the car will be displayed indoors or outdoors. You could color a car with artists pastels if you are going to stick it into a light-less, climate controlled building. I am kidding (who would do such a thing?), but the "five year" paint is going to last a lot longer indoors in indirect natural light. Incidentally, fluctuating humidity levels is worse than temperature swings from a conservation standpoint.

Anyway, weathering is an interesting subject, and one that you think would come naturally to a group with some model railroad overlap. Have any folks other than Randy H. considered this factor into their painting choices?

Patina is important too. I can't recall how many restoration jobs I have seen spoiled by being too shiny, smooth, or without historically appropriate brush strokes and stipple. Modern automotive epoxies seem to be the worst offenders when applied to what would have been covered with linseed oil based pigmented suspensions when in service. Reality is lost with very shiny hard coatings sprayed on, although Homer Simpson types do like it because it is shiny.........and attracts their short attention spans.

dave

Well, I knew it was going to be dangerous throwing my hat in the ring…

With respect to Robert’s reply to my earlier post:

“Railcars are not houses. Repaint every 5 years?”
Some railcars are called “house” cars, and if not moved on a regular basis, will have the same expansion and contraction issues that a house of the same vintage would have. The five year time span I threw out was what I have seen first hand. My house in Vermont (winter & July) still looks nice 6+ years after having been properly prepped for staining/painting.

While time consuming, a thinned first coat of primer, followed by a second coat of primer done full strength could do the trick. This would also allow a second chance, so to speak, to fill any holes that escaped repair the first time around. I do not agree with using “bondo” on wood, and would prefer to use a product that is meant for the expansion and contraction of wood surfaces. Also, the use of a quality brush, instead of air, will ensure a good coat of primer/paint as well.

“Crack a can, paint out of the can, the paint dries like a salt pond”
In my experience, if properly mixed and applied to a prepared surface, the user will not end up with a salt pond. Of course, the foreman (person?) needs to be aware of the air temperature, surface temperature, and what weather is expected over the next 24 hours.

“The K-mart crowd will freak out at Awlgrip 545's
list price of $150/gallon (it can be had for much less)”
I do not condone the use of “discount” paints and stains on houses, or historical wooden pieces of equipment and structures. I was using the R-8050 as an example of what can happen when doing it on the cheap, and what the results would be if done properly. In my humble experience, I feel that a good brand of latex, on a properly prepared surface will last more than my tossed out “5 year” period. And yes, I do feel that a price tag of $150/gallon is too much. The money could be better used on other projects.

I feel that painting is a good introduction to the restoration field for new volunteers off the street. Many people want to help out and do not have the advanced skills needed on involved projects (metal work and other areas). Applying paint to a piece of equipment, completing it and having it on display, will do wonders for the morale of volunteer staff.

I’m still waiting to pick up my hat!

Romi Romano

Matt, I want to throw in a couple ideas to consider. What degree of gloss do you intend to have with your paint? If the car were running in the weather, the high gloss paint is probably the most weather resistant. But I suspect that such gloss flattens out quite fast, so I am not sure how much difference it would make to the longevity of a car running in the elements.

But for a car on display under a shelter, a flat finish might be completely practical as well as being prototypical in appearance for the average in-service car. If a flat finish is acceptable, I would consider Cabot's oil based opaque solid color stain. It lasts as long as or longer than paint, and does not peel or require scraping when it needs a new coat. It just tends to fade slowly and turn kind of chalky. So all you do is wire bush it and add another coat or two. It probably comes in a color close to what you want on that car.

But I suggest you really focus on the primer since you have perfect new wood. I would do it this way: Use a mix of about 60-70% boiled linseed oil with the rest being mineral spirits. Set up a polyethylene moat or catch basin around the car under the walls. Warm up the mix somehow if possible and flood it on with a roller. Then use a scrub bush on a long handle and scrub the mix as it flows down the side of the car. You can see the mix soaking into the wood as the surface puddling disappears. When it does, roll on more mix and scrub some more. If you can do this with the mix being warm and shortly before dusk when it will cool off, the surface will be warm and then cool off while still quite wet. The cooling will cause contraction and draw the fluid as deep into the wood as possible. The deeper it goes, the more stable the outer surface will become to future moisture changes.

Then wait a month or so before applying the stain. The primer oil mix will set up overnight. It might seem somewhat sticky for a while, but I don’t think that causes any problem with the stain coat. It may even help. But just to be safe, I would wait at least a week or two before applying the stain. Brush or pad the stain on in two coats a day apart. A sustantial amount of stroking is a good idea to pound the stain in just like with the primer coats. I understand that you already are installing the wood, but if I were starting from scratch, I would hot/cold soak the wood in the oil mix, before installing it.

I am not sure what kind of metal parts are on the car, but the above approach is intended only for the wood and presumes that the iron will be painted separately with primer and paint of some type.