I remember getting aboard an engine for a cab ride several years ago. The engineer gave me one instruction; "keep your mouth shut". I followed his rule and we had a great time. Quietest I have been in years.

Back in 2005 I had two nice rides in cab at Strasburg Railroad both were with Engineer Doc Sellers, the first ride was in cab of No.90 and then No.31 before they renumber her back to 7312. I then did have a ride in cab of No. 7312 in 2007 with Walt Keeley just in the yard limits. All three rides I was quiet unless they were talking to me, unless I ask a question on a valve that Walt close on 90.
Being a member of the FRM the crew at strasburg knows me, because I go up quite often. But now that their insurance is deferent no more cab ride for even employee members. I was told that by Russ who is in charge of the engineer's training.
Here's a video I took while in cab of No.90.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfQLnmw2LGk

Len.

Some people do. I wish they would go off and live in an actual "sad, sad" world that I could go visit sometime and then return from!

Seriously. Like Mark Twain said, it's not what you don't know... it's what you know that just ain't so. It's easy to let our negativity talk us into things that aren't real. Look at cab rides... 20 years ago it was "don't let management see you", nobody really knew what the consequences were... now those engineers have elevated to management and created some real consequences. "Since there must be some, right?" And TRAIN sends out advisories. Tell me why again?

Another great example of negativity is this travesty, which has actually altered life for millions of kids and defined the degree to which they trust their neighbors: http://www.snopes.com/horrors/poison/halloween.asp

It's like some folks wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they weren't fearing something.

So... is there any hard evidence that cab rides on tourist railways ACTUALLY impinge safety? Sure, it seems completely obvious that a passenger is a distraction, but that's the glass half empty view. The glass half full view is a second set of eyes in the cab. This is where statistics tell us the truth. If we read them right.

Strikes me that this is a reaction to a few situations which have recently arisen as a result of operating crews being distracted by railfans - both on and off the trains. Cel phones, in cab distractions, etc - which certainly may be hazardous on lines where things change very quickly, but less so on a weed grown branch line limped along at 10 MPH in weekend museum service. As all rules go, application ought to be based on conditions rather than on everybody operating under all situations, or it will be unenforceably unpopular, like speed limits set arbitrarily low.

As Machiavelli said, a Wise Prince enacts no law that he can't enforce. TRAIN seems to be sending us a heads-up on this one with their recommendation, probably to help forestall the usual OSHA style overreaction.

dave

I think TRAIN is just trying to be vigilant for all of our sakes.

If something happens in the next 2-3 months on a tourist railroad in which a non-crew cab rider was discovered to have played a role and TRAIN had not made it a point to tell us to be more cautious, I'm sure many would feel responsible in so much as they had a perfect forum and opportunity to urge this caution and did not. It's a lot like a parent telling their kids to wear a seat belt when they go out -- even if they'd always worn one. If somehow the kid deviated from the norm that night and they were involved in an accident and found to have not worn a seat belt, the parent would be kicking themselves for having not said what they were compelled to do.

Advice isn't necessarily criticism. What harms one of us can harm all of us, but what helps one can help many others just the same.

KL

Not to pick at the Strasburg event, but I wonder if another non-railroad employee was in the cab? I want to make it clear that it is merely a question as opposed to an accusation.

There is a reason that all the big roads and commuter agencies don't let unauthorized people in the cabs of locomotives.

I'm glad I got my cab rides on Amtrak as an employee in the late 80's, early '90's. Guess that wouldn't happen now. At least I have those memories of riding over Sand Patch in the cab of #29, along the Connecticut River on the Inland Route, and over the Piedmont Sub on the Cardinal route. Too bad the next generation won't be able to say the same.

My very first cab ride was at 15, on the return trip from riding the short-lived "Harley's Hornet" turbo train from Parkersburg to Grafton, WV on the now abandoned "West End" of the B&O. One of the older fans I was with arranged for a couple of the younger guys to spend a few minutes in the E-8 on the conventional train that was the other half of the service. I will never forget walking through the engine room, past the twin 567's, at speed! Too bad most will never get to experience that.

> And TRAIN sends out advisories. Tell me why again?

I was at the board meeting and heard the discussions, so here are my commments. They may or may not reflect those of the TRAIN board members.

There were several reasons that led to the reccomendation.

The first, and most obvious, was the recent Metrolink crash that showed exactly how serious the consequences can be if a crew member is distracted.

Granted, most tourist railroads don't have signals, but if you're explaining how an injector works to a cab rider and you're involved in a grade crossing accident, even if it was no fault of the railroad, there could be implications.

The second issue is insurance, and most policies do not cover cab riders. In fact it was mentioned that some companies may go so far as to cancel an operation's coverage if they allow cab riders. Obviously this will vary from company to company.

The third reason was to bring the tourist railway industry in line with the FRA rules and regulations. The wording chosen was adopted to be in line with the FRA rules for cab riders, which basically state that only authorized personnel are permitted in the cab.

> So... is there any hard evidence that cab rides on tourist
> railways ACTUALLY impinge safety?

Do you really have to question whether putting somebody with little or no training in the cab of an operating steam locomotive could affect their safety? Distractions are only one factor. Ever been in the cab when a water glass breaks? What about the fire blowing back in an oil burner? Leaking steam line or broken valve? What if the soft plug fails, or a boiler tube was to fail?

Now consider the implications of having a passenger on board during such a situation.

I had a water glass start leaking in the cab one day. It got pretty bad pretty quickly. I tossed my coat over it and turned the valves off, and as I did so I also positioned myself between the glass and a female cab rider who was cowering in the corner of the cab against the door with a look of shear terror. Trust me, neither one of us was happy she was there at that moment... Had the glass actually blown, then I'd have needed to try and figure out how to protect her along with worrying about my own safety.

If you don't think the cab of a locomotive can be hazardous, maybe you're not paying attention.

If you agree that it can be, and I think you will, then the question is only a matter of just how much risk are we willing to accept to give folks cab rides?

Hey, I love cab rides as much as the next guy. But I still understand why they made this reccomendation. TRAIN has no rule making authority, so operations are free to continue their current practices. The goal was simply to raise the question and have them consider the implications, as we are doing here. It seems to be working.

A a retired engineer off of a major class 1 railroad who trained many firemen and student engineers I do not see any thing wrong with allowing visitors to ride inside the cab. Of course this needs to be under close supervision with proper safety equipment. This will be needed to spark new interest from the younger and older generations. When I was training engineers most came right off the street with no prior railroad experance. Their first day on the railroad was in the cab of a main line freight train. This can be done safely. I know that in late 04 Dollywood use to let people ride on the sand box in the cab while making its trip around the park. I do not see this as any more of a distraction than training a new employee.

Granted, cab rides are a potential hazard -- no doubt about it. Even operating a steam locomotive in the 21st century is a big risk. After all, diesel locomotives can provide the same transportation with less cost and less danger. The White Pass certainly has proven that it works even for a tourist line.

It is just that there are a relative few of us who don’t want to see steam die. We want to see it continue for years to come. Steam in the 21st century is not necessary, it is a hobby really, and while it can be deadly serious, it is supposed to be for fun.

I am very doubtful that the young enthusiasts are stepping up in sufficient numbers to replace us older ones. Sure, there will always be a few attracted to steam especially based on their own experience, if any, with it. I do think that the numbers are dwindling as old timers like me die off and new, potential enthusiasts are discouraged. Making the cab off-limit to all but the anointed will do nothing to perpetuate the love of steam.

I agree with T&PHoghead. Getting people in the cab, even if only to step up and look around while sitting at the depot, can be the encouragement they need to get involved in volunteering as train crew or restoration. Letting them ride is probably more encouragement.

I think we are comparing apples and axle grease here. The incident in Calif. was caused by inattention to duty. When passengers ride with me, I tell them politely that I probably won't answer questions unless we are stopped because of the responsibility to pay attention to water level, steam pressure, brake pressure, something not 'sounding right' and what is ahead of me among other things. While spotted at the depot I encourage questions and enjoy explaning what is going on. If on any given day there is a known issue that might impair safety for anyone, I will not let passengers ride, and may not get on board myself, depending on the issue. That rarely happens. As Engineer I have the option to refuse to let anyone ride in the cab on any given day or time.

Riding on the end car platform has it's risks. Riding in the open car has it's risks. For that matter in America, unlike Japan for example, riding anywhere on a train has it's risks. But riding on a steam or diesel train loping along at 10 to 15 MPH is a lot less risky than riding Metra or Amtrack, in my humble opinion.

It is imperative that the tourist train crews be properly trained in safe operation, and pay attention to their jobs. It doesn't matter if they are volunteers or paid. And, it is the duty of the tourist or museum management to ride along and observe all train crew personnel to make certain they operate safely. Plus, annual safety training is essential. I believe from reading on rypn and ngdiscussion that most if not all RRs have requirements for safety training. Of course it is also the responsibility of management and shop crews to keep equipment operating safely.

Finally, it is presumptive of anyone to assume where the FRA is going on any topic. It is imperative that all tourist lines work closely with FRA in their area to satisfy them in whatever the matter may be, whether it be records keeping, boiler testing, or personnel training and testing. Insurance is a matter between the tourist line and their insurance company.

Bottom line, people can get injured or killed anytime, anywhere on any train. But, IMHO, they run a greater risk of an auto accident getting to the railroad, than they do on a safely operated line.

It behoves everyone in the railroad tourist industry to operate safely, and encourage future generations to become involved. And to paint a dismal picture of what might happen, which we all understand and work hard to prevent, because someone on a mainline or light rail line is not properly trained, is wrong in my opinion. Reminding us all to operate safely is sufficient.

These are my opinions and do not necessarily reflect the policy of the railroad with which I am associated.

Thanks,

dan

Let's face it, America is litigious. If something happens, even through no fault of your own, you can and will be sued.

The thought that new employees are no different than other occupants in the cab is crazy. In a Class I environment, new employees have been through rules class and other assorted safety training prior to being placed in the cab of an operating locomotive. There is the EO 20, EO 24 training, EO 26 training, GCOR (or NORAC), TY&E rules, the list goes on and on and on... Find me a die hard rail fan that has been through a rules class; This is what separates the men from the boys...

The sad part is that short lines and tourist roads should be following in step and ensuring that their people have the proper training to do their job. No matter what it is.

I wonder how many groups are playing with fire by letting people ride in cabs w/o following insurance policy guidelines? One tourist group with a black eye is the entire preservation community with a black eye. We have go to start thinking about the big picture rather than living for the moment...

Yup, we do, unless we want to let the Chicken Little's of the world make all our decisions.


I wonder if the operator was smoking crack? Maybe given to him by the non-railroad employee who was an Al-Qaida operative, and who was also texting? To Lindsay Lohan? I want to make it clear that it is merely a question as opposed to an accusation.

:)

Mr Macdowell,

In accordance with keeping the panties bunched up and not offering anyone's sacred cow to the butcher, I made an attempt to dance around the subject.

To address your concerns, the railroad's 219 plan should handle the random testing of their employees. As for the concerns of Al-Qaeda, the railroad should have a Form C (or other bulletin) out concerning heightened awareness. EO 26 covers the use of cell phones and other assorted electronic devices. Any more ignorant observations?

It seems odd that the people you seek to be like are the ones that you are scaring off.

When I hired out on the T&P in New Orleans in 1973 I broke in on the hostling job in Alexandria, LA for 2 days. On the 3rd day, my first day of pay, I was the hostler helper and on the 4th day I was the hostler. I did not go through a rules class or any other type of formal training. I had only been through the hiring process which included an application, an aptitude test, and a physical. I was shown what to do by the man I followed on the fireman's roster. On the 7th day I was a fireman on through freight. With a little less than 2 months since I was hired I was in the Engineer's Training Program. Six months later I was an engineer. The first formal rules class was during the first 2 weeks of school in Little Rock. What we were told about the rules before that was what came from the crew we were working with. All the old heads said we would never make it. We all did fine and was actually getting over the road better than the old heads. I was less than 8 months from the street to the right seat. I had more hours of hands on training in those 8 months than a Navy Pilot has when he graduates flight training and flying F-18s off of a carrier. IF WE LET ALL THE WHAT IF'S DEFINE WHAT WE DO IN A GIVEN DAY, WE WOULD STAY AT HOME AND WATCH TV. Does anyone have any documented accidents caused by a guest in the cab of a locomotive. I am aware of the California accident with the engineer using the cell phone. When we were on trains running 60 MPH who ever was in the cab was usually in some kind of conversation and it was not always what color the next block signal was or where is the next slow order. This is not brain surgery. I have even seen tapes of surgery where the Doctor and his team are talking about all kinds of things besides the surgery at hand.

I believe the excitement and thrills we bring to the young and old when we put them in the cab is well worth the risk, which I feel is very low. We have a 3rd crew member in the cab and they watch the guest if we are moving. We brief them on what to do and where to stand or sit, which is on the sand box. When we are on display with steam pressure we have at least two crew members in the cab. We have put thousands of people through the cab this way with out any accidents at all.

Each organization needs to evaluate their risk and set their own standards.