The passenger service might not be one-way. However it does move several car loads of freight per year. Last I was up there (c1972), they had moved something like 4-6 freight cars of goods for the year. Not much, but they are more than a tourist operation even though they focus on tourists. I think the Durango & Silverton is the same way.

Does the Grand Canyon even post freight rates?

Doug vV

While I wouldn't think that many people travel the line as a one way trip (though some do, like myself when parking is extreme in New Hope), the New Hope & Ivyland railroad runs scheduled steam, and we do pick up people at either New Hope or Lahaska with the steam locomotive during the regular season...... That is if you are counting Strasburg, don't forget NH&I.

I think that this anecdote should serve as a friendly little lesson in the fact that NOT EVERYONE thinks the way we do.

This person undertook what was, for that time, a perfectly rational course of action for finding out how to ride a particular train. By modern standards of information gathering and our own frame of reference, it's positively incredulous and downright ludicrous.

But, in all probability, there are--using this Strasburg example only for continuity's sake--people who are finding out how to ride the Strasburg RR by calling the Amish Country Tourist Center (and Lancaster County has about six different such tourist info bureaus, as I recall), or by calling Amtrak. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has tried a travel agent. Or Travelocity.com.

The point is, however, that it doesn't matter how crazy, or stupid or senile or [pick a word], we "insiders" who eat/sleep/live/breathe this stuff (sometimes for pay) may think such an approach may be. We still all need to learn what we can from this, see to it that the potential patron is satisfied and buys a ticket or two or two hundred, and learn how better to get proper information out to our patrons.

And, yes, librarians still get crazy questions like this. Daily.

I didn't give all the details. We lived in Philadelphia, and Long Distance telephone calls were expensive, with a 3 minute minimum charge! You couldn't even Directly Dial to Strasburg like you could to Lancaster, the operator had to make the call for you. A local call to the library was untimed, and included in our Unlimited Use Limited Area Calling. My father worked for a Freight Forwarding Company and therefore, knew of and used the Official Guide of the Railways. Luckily, he also knew how to consult the current issue on a Sunday afternoon, when freight offices were closed. Official Guides were also expensive, therefore handed down and passed along. The Overbrook PRR ticket agent was 3rd on the list, so his copy was always 3rd hand and 4 months old.
The Strasburg RR's schedule changed frequently as the tourist flow changed with the seasons, so accurate information was desirable before making the long drive to the train. I think Daddy knew some of this because the feed dealer at Strasburg was a client of his employer.

"Brevity saves" only if people can figure out what you are talking about! ;)
otherwise it leads to a huge lack of brevity, and entire posts merely asking what you are talking about, then more posts about your reply..such as this one..

your "nope" led to at least 100 additional words and three additional posts in this thread simply wondering what "nope" meant! ;)

in this case, brevity does not save..

please just give a quote so people know what you are replying to.

Scot

The way you have phrased your question is such that almost any steam tourist railroad would qualify.

For example the Durango and Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad is steam powered and runs on a schedule.
It connects two towns that are 40 miles apart and they do have a paid staff with perhaps some help from volunteers.

i think the profit making Strasburg Railroad which is only 6 miles long runs steam because they have found that is what attracts the passengers and the families that ride the line.

It is too bad that the new management of the Grand Canyon has decided to abandon steam. I think that a common Diesel powered train will not attract the number of passengers that the steamers did.

But, time will tell!

Ted Miles

It was reported in Trains and elsewhere that the Grand Canyon laid off 20 people when they suspended steam service. Does it really take twenty additional people to run steam rather than diesel for one 130-mile roundtrip per day at no more than 50 mph? If so, no wonder so little steam is operating today, and no wonder steam died so quickly in the 50's!

Quite possibly. In 1947, the Pennsylvania Railroad alone employed over 125,000 people. Today, the entire Class I industry employs somewhere less than 175,000. Much of the reduction was in the elimination of steam power.

But, on the other hand, the steam has a definate draw as well.

As a class 1 locomotive engineer, the father of a 2yo female steam fan and a 1yo male railfan, and as a hardcore ferro-equestrian archeologist* myself, the news of GCRy's decision is depressing to me.

While the canyon is impressive, its just a really big ditch. To me, the entire reason for traveling nearly 2,000miles was the steam operations. If I'm going to packup my family for a vacation, I'll go somewhere that has an operating steam engine.

*As for my use of the term above, that's not just a joke to me. Since I work with them for a living, diesels and freight trains are nice, but they are just nice. An abandoned right of way, a steam engine; they are both apart of what was, and what can never be again. Exploring the past is far superior to enjoying the present, and only marginally less enjoyable than building the future.

And once again, we see someone not thinking like "everybody else" does.

Much as I might agree that I want to see and ride behind live, working steam, the opinion of jgallaway1 is definitely not shared by the millions that go to the Grand Canyon yearly. Every cliche about photography not doing it justice is true, and even I had to tear myself away from the canyon rim to resume photographing the Alcos that were running that day. If the Grand Canyon is "just a really big ditch," the steam locomotives are just noisy, polluting, dirty forms of motive power.

There's a way to package a steam railroad experience into such a "time capsule" experience that even the most idiotic public appreciates the difference between a vintage steam ride and "just another train ride." Many of the British excursion lines--Severn Valley, Strathspey, Bluebell, North York Moors, Keighley & Worth Valley--excel at it, and even good places like Strasburg, WK&S, Cass, Sierra, etc. have much to learn from them. Sadly, however, between the mass-market appeal to a huge section of the public and the "people-mover" function of the line, I'm coming to the opinion that such an experience is impossible to offer on the Grand Canyon RR, no matter how many "Wild West shootouts" and other cliches they throw at the patrons. Now, were they to try and simulate a 1940's train ride to the Canyon on the Santa Fe, on the other hand.........

I've been to England and ridden the North Yorkshire Moors and the Bluebell,and if it wasn't for the occasional jet flying overhead, it could easily be the 1930's or 1940's. they do a lot of great things over there that we should work to emulate here.How fantastic would it be to be able to ride heavyweight cars behind appropriate steam power,running at a good clip,stopping at stations,taking on water? The TOTAL experience I think is what is lacking on most tourist railroads here, and I think if we took that approach we would be getting more ridership on all of our excursion lines.

Our assumptions about "total experience" may differ, also. At Strasburg, we aim to provide the total experience, with room for improvement, of course. But I once heard a fan say, "Why don't you paint your coaches a real railroad color?" I had to remind him that red or vermillion was a real railroad color prior to 1915. Slow speed, mixed trains, TT/TO operations were the greater portion of North American train operations at the turn of the prior century. It appears to me that the majority of fans are focused on the superpower steam era. This may lead to some arrive at a skewed interpretation of what constitutes an authentic experience.

Steve:

I in no way meant any disrespect to you, Strasburg or Linn. I think there is room for both interpretations of the steam era,and I think you guys,the Valley should be commended for what you do. Both would be correct and would give both sides of the coin as far as operations would be concerned.I have yet to get up there, but I will hopefully next year. I'd love to have a cup of coffee with you guys.

I didn't take it that way ... just a comment on even trying to target "authentic."

In this brave new world we certainly have our work cut out for us.

Texas Highballer, when you get up here, introduce yourself and I'll be glad to show you around.

Authenticity doesn't always sell either......imagine if Colonial Williamsburg actually had outdoor privies, livestock in the streets and smelled authentic. I think we like to experience the more pleasantly nostalgic aspects of history, without all that messy reality intruding. Medicine and dentistry in the 1860's? No, thanks.............riding an authentic 1860's 4-4-0 through the Georgia Hills retracing the route of the Andrew's Raid? Where do I sign up?

Tourist operations have greater leeway to experiment with the fantasy aspects of the experience offered than museums. Renaissance Faires don't even pretend to completely recreate the reality of the daily life of the average medieval peasant - but a slice of the fantasy of the gentry life and experience? Very marketable.......and fun as it turns out for many people, even though there were historically no turkey drumsticks in medieval Europe. Taken to extremes you get such other fantasies as Juraissic Park or West World (which only existed in other fantasies). Somewhere in between is the created experience of the Hooterville Valley branch of the C&FW from Pixley Visitor's Center to Drucker's General Store and Gift Shop with an overnight stay at the Shady Rest B&B. Probably swimming with the girls in the water tower not available due to liability concerns. Ziffel's Hog Farm not recreated due to odor issues. Arnold the pig available in a petting zoo.

So what parts of the reality and the fantasy of the reality do we want to package and present to our visitors?

dave