what is the story behind these?

http://pub34.bravenet.com/forum/2848246189/fetch/473371

Hope this helps.

Sloan

I'm not sure whether RYPN or perhaps a bus-history website would be the best place to ask this, but here goes: Was El Paso City Lines one of the last National City Lines properties to be dealt off to a quasi-governmental or municipal entity? (Examples: Key System becoming A-C Transit, LA Transit Lines becoming part of the first LAMTA.) This would be most ironic given the pro-bus bias of NCL.

Not to reshash an old debate, but several of the larger NCL properties still had streetcars in some form or another when they were sold to public entities, including Philly (PTC to SEPTA), St. Louis, (SLPS to Bi-State Development), LA (to MTA). In other words, El Paso wasn't an odd man out in that regard.

El Paso City Lines was the last National City Lines trolley operation to go to a government entity. The trolleys lasted because N.C.L. was reluctant to test the idea that Mexican bus companies must be domestically owned. The trolley was subject to Mexican railroad laws about ownership, and may have been "grandfathered". Any change might have started trouble.

After the PCC's were shut down, they were stored in the old car barn for years. When the City decided to convert the car barn to a fire station. the cars had to be moved. All the excess parts were sold to Orange Empire Railway Museum. As I was living in Dallas, I receives a call to go and help load out the "stuff" onto a semi for shipment to Perris, CA.

While I was there, I met the past Master Mechanic, Sam ( I have forgotten his last name). He told me how the system came to be shut down. The Mexican officials decided that the cars should be operated by Mexicans after the car came across the border (bridge) and that the local Mexican officials would collect all fares in Mexico. This was not satisfactory to the El Paso operators and discussions were carried on for a while. One day when the PCC crossed into Mexico, the Border Guards stopped the PCC and demanded that the car be turned over the a Mexican operator. The PCC operator was instructed by El Paso to shut the car down there and then.

The car sat in traffic for a few days until Mexico demanded that it be moved to a spot that was out of traffic. Sam had an idea and told the El Paso management that he would move the car. When Sam arrived as planned, the Mexican officials demanded the a Mexican operate the car. Sam agreed but explained that to get the car into a spot that would leave the car out of traffic, he had to take the car back through the route and re-cross the bridge to the preferred spot. It was agreed upon by all as long as the Mexican operator drove the car to the parking spot.

As the PCC approached the US Border, Sam had a quick flash of an idea. When the car stopped for the US Border agent, Sam told the agent that the driver was a Mexican and did not have a permit to work in the US nor did he have a "Green Card." The agent promptly arrested the operator and Sam took the car to the car barn (the Mexican driver did not understand English, luckily) Instead of returning it to Mexico. Needless to say, the Mexican officials wre very upset and promptly posted a arrest warrant for Sam. Sam says it was years later that he was brave enough to cross into Mexico and only after the authorities cancelled the arrest warrant. And, so the system was permanently shut down with the last PCC safely in the USA and the car barn. National Lines had nothing to do with the termination of PCC service; only the local governments.
Harry Nicholls

Harry,

Thanks for sharing the story.

I was in El Paso for a Railway & Locomotive Historical Society annual meeting and convention between the shut down and the OERM acquisition of parts. On the Saturday tour of the City and railroad locations we stopped at the carhouse and were allowed to wonder around the cars, etc. I recall seeing some parts in the pits and along some of the carhouse walls. But the storeroom had already been stripped; about the only item I saw in there was a carbon insert for the trolley shoe (on the trolley pole) -- it now on my bookshelf.

As I left town to come back to Los Angeles on the Amtrak Sunset Limited the train passed the bus garage facility. Sticking out of one of the scrap bins was the truck frame of a PCC!

Hi, Brian,

Yes, the store room was pretty well stripped except, upon the upper level was a box of light fixture globes overlooked by everyone. I stumbled on them as I was going through papers that covered them. Those globes were loaded on the truck, pronto.

A side story is that there was an old car jack in the pits that the crew loading the semi decided was not worth salvaging as it did not work. I loaded the old jack into my Datsun's trunk and brought it back to Dallas. After we started the McKinney Avenue Trolley, I took the jack to our barn and the boys took it apart, cleaned out the old, frozen grease, and reassembled the jack. It is still working today at MATA.
Harry

Harry -

Great story! I just wonder which particular PCC was the one that was left in traffic over in Mexico. Seems as if it is rather famous as "the streetcar that got lost and found its way home"!

Also, I understand that the cars in the El Paso system went into Mexico and returned again in a regular routing. Just wondered if this was some kind of "circle route" or just an "out and back" system.

I also wonder if the cars could have been (or could still be) operated just in El Paso itself. With the recent resurgance of light rail systems, it seems as if El Paso represents a good opportunity for the cars to run once again. Providing that the political climate might have changed.

Les

I do not remember the car number. The El Paso routes into Mexico went over one bridge and then looped in Jaurez before returning across another bridge ( I do not remember ethe street or bridge names). Operation could have been continued, I think, but the loop was a major part of the system. If cars operated south to the bridge, there would not have been any way to turn them around. I suggest anyone wanting more information on El Paso operations and possibilities check with the El Paso web site and query them for details. My memory, now 30 years later, is not that reliable. News on the future possibilities have been cooking ever since I was to El Paso that day years ago. It seems to be a never ending saga of off and on, depending upon the local elected officials desires. There is still hope we will see the system again operate. There is a lot (or, was) of track in the streets.
Harry

Harry -

I found a website with a map:

http://www.tramz.com/mx/cj/cjm.html

The website also told me that the "confiscated" PCC was #1516. I wonder if this is one of the 9 PCC cars still in El Paso? Also, a note that the streetcar tracks on the Mexican side were all torn out some time after the cessation of service.

Les

The route was a large oval using 2 international bridges. There was one short turn cut-back in El Paso, but the switches faced towards Mexico. There was a long single track spur to the carbarn. I think cars pulled out onto the street, then backed up to the main line; the reverse at night. Not all the cars could be stored indoors.
Another version has the endings as the transit company abolishing tolls on an international bridge and the laid off Mexican toll collectors striking and holding the 1st car of the new era hostage. It was retrieved later. Meanwhile, National City Lines sold out to the City of El Paso, which tried to re-start international service. The city hoped that the Mexicans would look more favorably on a fellow government. Meanwhile, the city started domestic trolley service, backing the cars on the short turn track that faced the wrong way. That awkward operation didn't last long, and a now city owned tower truck was allowed to cut down the trolley wire in Mexico. For a while, the cars were shifted at the Cotton St. barn, so the rubber sandwiches in the resilient wheels wouldn't get flat spots from sitting in the same place all the time.
Sources are Rod Varney's Texas Division Electric Railroaders' Ass'n. "Short Circuit Bulletin".

Seeing Frank Hicks recent posting on a different thread got me to thinking I should check out his website about existing electric equipment. And looking over the list of equipment, I found that the 1516 is NOT one of the 9 PCC cars still in El Paso. So, I managed to answer my own question, with a bit of help from Mr. Hicks.

Les