Does the fact that this particular E-unit has been rebuilt with 645 engines matter?

If we are using the standard "government wards," couldn't we say much the same about any of the other "great" museums in other fields (art, history, science, etc.)?

I think Robert's reference is to railroad museums that are direct agencies of federal, state or local government. Most traditional museums in other fields are independent not-for-profit corporations with "outside" Boards of Trustees, although they often get a substantial amount of their funding from goverment grants.

The only railroad museum that I can think of that fits the traditional museum mold is the B&O Railroad Museum

Going back to Sandy's question about E8/E9 units and 645 conversions, I have not kept up with the history of this particular locomotive subsequent to RTA and Metra, but the BN E-units generally got upgraded to use 645 power assemblies within the 567 crankcases. As far as converting such a locomotive to a "visible" display, it makes virtually no difference in the appearance.

Converting a covered wagon type unit to "visible" display (ie: side panels removable so you can see the machinery) in no way precludes subsequent conversion back to an operating locomotive. EMD actually had a traveling locomotive show in the late 1940s to early 1950s, where a "B" unit in the demonstrator set had removable side panels. They could pull into a station or a rail siding at a State Fair or other event and open up the locomotive for display with a couple hours work. When done they closed it up again it looked pretty much like the other demonstrators, except for certain appliances that were color coded for their function. They would use the "visible" unit this way for a summer display season, then sell it to a customer.

PC

The myth persists even here that VMT is state owned and operated. It is not, it merely has "Virginia" in its name. It is not that young a museum either, having been started by the City of Roanoke in the early 1960's, and becoming independent of the City in 1977. You don't often hear the word "great" in the same paragraph as "VMT" either, unless the word "potential" is after it. VMT wants to be a traditional museum like the B&O, but unfortunately has become the poster child for for everything that an "outside board" can do wrong. They do, however, have not one but two "visible E-8's"

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=85981

Gary - I know you were speaking "tongue in cheek" concerning these "visible" E units. But are either considered restorable to service? I believe that the one in the back might be Wabash #1009, right?

Les

I'm specifically referring to cases like California State Railroad Museum, Virginia Museum of Transportation, and other ventures... where that long, slow, painful bootstrapping process has been short-circuited by a vast infusion of cash, from some institutional source, typically government.

As both CSRM and VMT have learned, this can be a mixed blessing, and can bring problems of their own...



I was there last year. Didn't see those E-8's, and I would have remembered them. Are they stored offsite?

The VMT I saw certainly had the look and feel of a fairly new museum, or at least a recent coup or "reboot" of an old museum. The impact of new-money really showed. And from the way the place was run, it did not reflect long experience in the railway museum business. Also evident was that a massive funding source had been present in the last decade and had now dried up.

Les, They are RF&P 1001 and Wabash 1009 (which was the "something-thousanth" unit built by EMD, and had a commemorative plaque on it at one time). 1009 hasn't run since 1964, and I'm fairly certain is missing a number of power assemblies. 1001 came in 1989 after having come out of Amtrak service. The prime movers were supposedly OK at that time, but it was missing some electrical items. Around 1990 the very rusty side panels on both units were removed in an abortive restoration attempt, and the units were sandblasted by an outside contractor. New stainless steel side panels were to be fitted, based on measurements supplied by a "professional" Museum employee, but they were found to be 6" too small in all dimensions. Since then the units have been exposed to the weather and have suffered considerable additional corrosion damage. The Roanoke Chapter NRHS attempted to aquire the RF&P unit in the late 1990s, but nothing ever came of the effort, and the Virginian station project came along to become the NRHS money pit. I would think that it would take a very large wallet to restore either of these two to operation. If you're simply looking for an operable E, there are a lot of better candidates out there.

The E-8's and a lot of other equipment that was "less than cosmetically attractive" was moved off site about 3 years ago. If you're talking about the pavilion out back as the "new-money", it was a 10-year project including the fund raising. I was a new Board Member when the project started in 1992, and still active as a volunteer when it was dedicated in 2003. As far as not reflecting long experience in the business, the answer is simple. All of the experienced people, including both staff and volunteers, were "fired" by the previous Executive Director in 2004. Regardless of Mr. Moorman's challenge grant, I don't think many of them are willing to come back until there is positive evidence of real change on the part of VMT's attitudes and policies.

I would like to keep this topic on the Museum of Transportation not the 952. It is my understanding that they and the Illinois Railway Museum are the only two railroad museums in the USA that have a national rather than a regional collection policy.

Their founders wanted to preserve an example of every kind of wheel arrangement of steam locomotive; regardless of which railroad it ran on. They have come close to it with an 0-4-0 all the way up to a 2-6-6-0. That is some range!

I have not visited the site; but in recent years they have moved most of the collection under cover and cleaned up a lot of it! That is good work.

As a traction fan I am glad that they are running some of their electric equipment. Although it would have been nice to see some St Louis cars; they would have needed a different track gauge (four foot ten inches?).

I believe that he museum has moved their airplanes and fire trucks to places that collect those items. The old saying, "letting go is hard to do" is especially true for museums that collect big artifacts.

It seems to me that they are doing the right thing passing around a color booklet that pictures the items that they want to find a new home for. It does an institution good to shake the dust loose these days!

Ted Miles

You are right in that the founders of the Museum of Transportation set about trying to collect every major wheel arrangement of steam locomotive. They were able to get all major types of rod engine except a 2-6-2, although they didn't get any geared types. I don't know where the 2-6-6-0 info came from as the only articulated ones there are the N&W Y-6a 2-8-8-2 and a UP Big Boy. On the other hand no other museum has two main line articulated engines and none has a larger collection of steam locos. Some of the things they turned down would break your heart, such as a streamlined Milwaukee Rd 4-4-2. There was really little duplication. The advantage they had was partly timing, collecting in the 1950s. And partly connections, as Dr. Roberts was well known in the industry and they had Arthur K. Atkinson, president of the Wabash, working to help them as well. As a railroad president he didn't have to deal with underlings whose job it was to say no. He just started at the top, sending letters urging various donations while making much more direct phone calls with the same goal. He was very convincing, to the degree that the volunteers had to race to get enough track installed to handle the influx in those early years. All this was in addition to the only collection of St. Louis streetcars, etc.

Yeah, what intrigues me about MoT is that they've managed to preserve a *tunnel*. And what's more, their demonstration streetcar line aims straight at it! I presume their intention is to go *through*, then maybe come round the mountain or have a loop on the other side of it?



Talk about words that should never be used together: "sandblasting" and "contractor"...

Robert -

I think the tunnel may have been a major problem as I have heard that some of the equipment was stored in it for a time which, because of the moisture in it, may have hastened the deterioration of the equipment. Maybe someone from the museum can comment. Of course, just running the track through, as on a streetcar ride, is different from storing stuff inside.

Les

For awhile the Shelburne Falls Trolley Museume diden't own the land they were on when the land owner wanted to move away he wanted to sell the land and this became a problem, in the end we borrowed money from the bank to buy the land we were on.

Well considering what we do with what little we got, I say it is a pretty good museum we have been geting a lot done restoration wise we even started to do more work on the steam locomotive until it was unexpectedly taken to another museum.

Ah, the tunnel. It was one of two on the original right of way for the Pacific RR of Missouri, later MP, which built it between 1851 - 53. The single track tunnel was shortened in 1929 and bypassed in 1945 when the single track stretch between them was a bottleneck on a double track line in war time. The track was removed and in 1946 Dr. Roberts was able to lease the site with its historic tunnel for the museum. After some time the track was restored through the tunnel and the Illinois Terminal railbus was used to take visitors through it. As there was no protection for any of the exhibits as they came in some streetcars eventually were placed in the tunnel with the thought it was better for them than staying out in the weather. But it was damp in there and as the drainage was not maintained there was quite a buildup of moisture in the limestone walls as well as in the air. One night part of a wall caved in, crushing one streetcar. Once the tunnel was cleared the track was taken up and it wasn't used that way again for years. The first building on the site was put up in the later 70s to hold the streetcars but wound up being used for automotive exhibits instead. A streetcar building finally came in the mid 1990s. Track was reinstalled about half way through later on but the contractor wound up putting it above its historic level, reducing the clearances. The wire for the streetcar line ends at its mouth now and the tunnel needs a major investment to restore its drainage and make it safe. The railroad made many modifications to strengthen it over the years and these are easily seen inside. One day far in the future one would hope to see it used as part of the demonstration line and the museum does now own it and land on the other side as well. Hopefully a master plan will reserve such a route for future track on the far side so riders could go through it one day.