Hey guys, I have a question....

Not necessarily limited to the PRR here, but I was listening to some PRR Steam Audio earlier and noticed how some whistles were very low and deep, some more higher pitched, and some more raspy.....

Was this possible because the railroad had to make new modified whistles to achieve the desired pitch/tone of the whistle or could the same standard whistle simply be tuned and positioned a certain way to sound slightly different?

If so, what were techniques railroads used to make these changes?

Thanks!

- Dan

Generally speaking, PRR had two whistles, a three-note passenger whistle and a small single-note freight whistle.

The freight whistle was very high pitched and would play a recognizable single note when it was in good shape. They were shaped something like an old-fashioned egg cup. However, if worn or otherwise in poor condition, it would deteriorate into a toneless shriek. It had the well deserved nickname of "banshee." There are available recordings of both these sounds, although I don't know of any locos in operation that have one. They're not very nice sounding!

The passenger whistle was a very mellow although not particularly low pitched three- note minor chord, somewhere around 1st position Dm (d-f-a). Check out any Strasburg recording with 1223 or 7002 and you can hear what a PRR whistle sounds like in good condition. However.... this is where things get dicey. When the passenger whistle condition deteriorates, various thing can happen. One or more of the notes may not sound. One or more notes may overblow and sound a higher note, changing the harmonics of the whistle and the resultant sound. The passenger whistle could also sound raspy, even although all three notes ere sounding. There are several M1 recordings that illustrate this sound.

Doppler effect would also influence the trackside sound of both whistles. They would sound higher if the loco was approaching the listener and lower if the loco were going away.

Deposits in the whistle chambers, wear on the lower edge of the bell portion of the whistle (the top and most visible part of the whistle), position of the bell on the steam ring would all have an effect on the sound. I believe most of the differences you heard were the result of random variation in condition rather than anything planned or designed.

Hope this helps,
Dave Stephenson

Actually, this would be a lovely topic of much debate among both whistle fans and PRR fans, if only many participants could get past their sense of thinking they know what were absolutely "definitive" answers. First things first, in spite of the nickname/slogan "Standard Railroad of the World," the PRR was often anything BUT standardized. The whistles in question were built by the PRR in their own foundries in Altoona, which is actually one of the rare cases where a whistle "from the XYZ Railroad" is literally FROM the railroad, unlike the Hancocks, Nathans, Crosbys, etc. where there's really no way of telling, unless you removed the whistle with your own hands or tools, what railroad it came from. (The astute and cynical whistle collectors will say that of the 25 Hancock long-bell three-chimes that graced UP Big Boys, about 100 are in collectors' hands claimed as a "Big Boy whistle," and similarly, of the 278 Leslie A200-156 air horns that rode on PRR GG1's, about 600 are in collectors' hands........)

The description of the "Banshee" whistle (and, as another example of the above snark, it appears the "standard" spelling of that word among PRR "experts" is "banchee;" whether this is in deference to the apparent bad spelling of PRR employees or their own inability to spell is another debate entirely!) is pretty much accurate. The actual pitch of a proper PRR single-note is a couple notes below the classic British screaming eggcups you may have seen in various Hitchcock movies or heard in UK recordings--not to be confused with the Stanier "Black Five" hooter which almost perfectly matched the N&W freight hooter heard on N&W 1218 in pitch, if not in power/decibels. Similar PRR designs have been traced back almost as far as the 1870s.

The PRR three-chime was used on K4s, G5s, D16sb, J1, and M1 classes, the latter two being freight loco classes. The top plate of a PRR three-chime should bear the pattern number "X 6532 A"; there were no stamps or the like for railroad, loco number, or the like. The original shop-built triad is listed as E-G-B, an E-minor triad in root position, a tone later adopted by Nathan for its three-chime whistles

When PRR 1361 was restored in 1987, supposedly a whole bunch of mis-treated PRR whistles surfaced from Altoona-area cellars and attics--I remember the first time 1361 was steamed, it took almost five or six tries before any acceptable sound emanated from the loco's whistle valve. But there are/were two distinct sounds to the classic PRR 3-chime, and both made appearances during 1361's brief running career. The sound the first generation that didn't see PRR steam in person is familiar with is a deeper, haunting moan made popular by PRR 1223 and "7002," as well as several Semaphore records of PRR steam, made using wire recordings by John Prophet of the Buffalo, NY area--particularly "On Time," the LP of K4's on the New York & Long Branch. However, if you go to the complete archive of Prophet's PRR recordings released by Semaphore and the PRRT&HS, you'll find a higher-pitched three-chime prevalent in recordings made outside of central Pa. and the NY&LB. Some folks have referred, with no real authority for this, as the "Eastern" sound and the "Lines West" sound.......

The story I've been TOLD by at least two whistle experts is that the PRR, late in its steam days, undertook modifications to some of its whistles to change the notes sounded, in order to reduce the shrill noise in closer quarters. This makes sense if you realize that, by the late 1940s, steam was generally confined to commuter passenger service. Also, it was common for the three-chime whistles to be robbed from passenger steamers being retired and switched onto freight power if the opportunity arose--about the only folks that could have loved the "banshee" were the legal or casualty-prevention department of the PRR.

Does anyone at Strasburg want to reach into the "whistle safe" in the shop and tell us what the whistles used on 1223 and "7002" look like today?

Thanks for the correction of the PRR whistle. I knew it was higher than a typical Nathan, but never had any documentation as to what the intended three notes were.

Now on the subject of the Nathan, limiting my comments to N&W's applications. Other apps may (and do, at least to my ear) sound slightly different although they're ostensibly the same store-bought whistle. The variation is more sound quality than actual notes.

There was an article in The Arrow (N&WHS magazine) Jan/Feb 2005 that gave a range of notes and different chords for the N&W J's and K2's. There were slight variations ranging from Bflat-D-G, B-D-Fsharp, B-D-G and C-E-G, without the Doppler effect affecting the sound. The K2 was always B-D-Fsharp, and the J had the other three, based on a sample of excursion recordings and videos. Regardless of the slight variation in individual notes and the subjectivity of the observations, the entire Nathan group was at least two steps lower than the design chord for the PRR whistle.

I may be way off base here, but I would think the boiler pressure of a particular locomotive would have some bearing on the tone and volume of the whistle. I would also point out that recordings of PRR whistles offering different pitches and sound quality could be the results of wear to the languid plate at the base of the whistle and/or the condition of the whistle bell. Particularly in the final years of PRR steam, it doesn't appear that shop forces paid much attention to the whistles, as long as they produced a sound -- any sound.

A perfect demonstration of the different characteristics of whistles may be heard on the locomotives of the East Broad Top. With the exception of no. 15, the other (formerly) operational engines, nos. 12, 14, and 17, all have the same whistle, but the sound of each is quite distinctive. No. 17, in particular, has a high pitched sound due to wear. No. 15, at one point, carried a PRR passenger whistle which had a distinctly different tone and pitch when compared to the other locomotives.

You're not off base, Wayne, and we presume neither are the whistles. <:-)

On the one hand, there really shouldn't be THAT much difference between a K4s or M1a leading the "Broadway" across Ohio and a K4s on the New York & Long Branch, assuming the fireman is actually keeping up close to full pressure and not fighting a tender full of bad coal. Put the same whistle on, for example, a Case steam tractor or PRR 0-6-0 643, you're presumably not going to have the same 205 psi that the K4s used. The PRR made its own whistle valves as well, and the two different designs (vertical mount as on "7002" and 1223, angled mount attached to the side of the dome as on most other locos) may be a factor. Even Doppler effect has to be factored in if there's any appreciable speed to the loco. And, yes, there are whistle fanatics that go as far as holding up frequency spectrum analyzers at horn/whistle blows.

Unfortunately, it'll be a long time--if ever--before we get to hear EBT 12, 14, 15, and 17 side by side again to compare. Dig out the videos, I guess. <:-/

The main reason that the regular whistle on 643 does not sound exactly like a PRR passenger whistle is that it is NOT a PRR passenger whistle. The whistle most used on 643 is a Lunkinheimer shop whistle that uses what is said to be the same notes as a PRR whistle. It does sound very similar, but is not an exact match. One of our other members brings out a genuine PRR passenger whistle a couple of times a year and when it is on the engine it sounds pretty much exactly as the recordings I've heard of them do. I don't know what other differences they have, but I can tell you from experience of hefting them up on the boiler that the genuine PRR whistle weights more!

But anyway, my point is, a genuine PRR passenger whistle sounds just right at 150psi! Alexander does have a good point that pressure does make a difference. The Banshee especially is known to really be awful at higher pressures (one of the reasons PRR pretty much stopped using them beyond the I1? just a guess.). But keep in mind both the Banshee and Passenger chime were pretty much designed before locomotive boilers got much beyond 150-200 pounds.

Thanks for the responses, guys! Some very interesting things I've learned...



Here's a clip of an H10s with a banshee...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYgMuLycRIo

And if you wanna hear a clip of a PRR Passenger whistle when it REALLY sounds good...here's PRR 7002 during the 85th Anniversary of the Broadway Limited. I wish 1361 had sounded this beautiful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-Z6N1MEgmQ

Was it rare for railroads to have their own unique, distinguishable whistles? I just made a list off the top of my head of railroads which I know for certain had their own distinctive whistle designs. This is what I came up with in about 3 minutes, and I'm sure that I'm missing many:

Pennsy
Louisville & Nashville
Baltimore & Ohio
Reading
Canadian National
Georgia RR
Southern Pacific
Santa Fe
Northern Pacific
Great Northern
Norfolk & Western
Boston & Maine
Atlantic Coast Line
Chesapeake & Ohio
Missouri Pacific
Frisco
Illinois Central
Chicago Burlington & Quincy
Denver & Rio Grande
Denver & Rio Grande Western
Southern
Western Maryland
New York Central

-Even the shop at Cass, WV, cast their own whistles.

A unique design does not necessarily prove that the whistle was built by the railroad in question, and in some of the above cases, whistles and/or whistle parts were manufactured for the railroad by commercial parts suppliers to the railroad's specific design via special order. For example, I have a few whistle blueprints from railroad mechanical departments giving instructions for how to machine raw castings that were purchased from parts suppliers (in this case, Crosby and Nathan). In most of the above cases though, the whistles were clearly manufactured by the railroad from the point of making foundry patterns to final assembly.


A truer statement about railroad whistle archaeology has never been made. This reminds me of a good piece of advice that my friend Bob Hunter, a very experienced whistle collector, once gave me: "never say never when it comes to railroad whistles!"

Many whistle aficionados - even some experienced collectors - are handicapped by the tenancy to reduce everything into clear, definitive absolutes on topics such as what railroads had what whistles. Their whistle vocabulary extends little beyond Hancock, Nathan, Crosby, and the like. I guess it is easy for people today to loose sight of how large and diverse the railroad industry was during its golden age. However, there were hundreds, if not thousands of different types of railroad whistles. Many of the railroads mentioned above had multiple different home built whistle designs. Take the Reading for example, which had a 6 chime, a 3 chime, and at least two differently designed high pitched hooters. Many railroads which had their own whistles also used commercially manufactured ones: the N&W built hooters but also bought Hancocks. Don't forget to also keep in mind that many of the railroad whistles that survive today are likely from the last steam to run - this largely negates the ones of the earlier generations when railroads were less standardized and there was even more variety, most of which were probably scrapped before people began to collect things. The reasons that make the topic so complicated and inconclusive, and hence interesting, could go on and on.

Here is a PRR 3 chime on the Durango & Silverton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBA1D-ophk

And there's your so-called "Lines West" sound. Compare and contrast with "7002"-1223. This is supposedly the sound "knocked off" by Crosby and/or Nathan, and I *think* is also the sound you would have heard from the PRR whistle that made its way to Cass.

Anyone know off hand what notes make up the Reading 6 chime? What about the 3 chime?

And I have another question...

Listen to the whistle in this clip of a PRR I1sa....

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=4dlKL6 <--- it sounds terrible on the site, so just download the file to the desktop, it's just 256kb.

How did they get the whistle to shriek like that? It's really cool...and the echo is nice!

Did railroads put replacement whistles or horns on operating locomotives after the originals passed into collectors' hands? Did whistles, horns, and bells stay and last the lifetime of the locomotive, or was there a lot of routine replacing that could also supply the collectors' market?

As a rule, yes. A locomotive HAS to have an operable horn or whistle in order to go out on the system, and unless a fleet is totally standardized, exchanges and swap-outs did and do occur. One example is the robbing of PRR three-chime whistles from retired passenger steam to use on freight steam instead of shrill "banshees."

However, that's not what the above snark was referring to.

Save for spectacularly rare circumstances--unique whistles such as a "pan-pipe" whistle saved from a Ma & Pa steamer, shop-built whistles, and unique air horn applications like a split Leslie set applied to early Amtrak SDP40F's or the Westinghouse E2B1 applied to some PRR experimental electrics--whistles are pretty much interchangeable, especially mass-produced stuff like the Hancock long-bell three-chime. Horns, even more so.

Thus, if I have a Leslie A200-156 sitting around in Baltimore--which could have come off of any old tugboat, switcher, or whatnot--it will bring a few hundred bucks at best. If I claim it's off a PRR GG1, all of a sudden it's worth $1000 or so, apparently.

Nathan LB 3-chime off of who-knows-what loco, boat, or factory? Maybe a thousand bucks or two on a good day. Put it on eBay with photo "proof" that "it was carried on UP Big Boys", and some sucker will probably bid it up to $15,000.

The whistle collection that I call the best is not the shiniest, or the biggest whistles, or all that. It's the collection of an executive of a boiler company down South, who was involved in the dismantling of dozens of old sawmills, cotton compresses, mills, etc. He salvaged every whistle he could, and kept meticulous notes on their heritage, usually with photos of the whistle in place and being winched down to earth from the smokestacks or roof. He was doing some trading and selling on eBay for a while--some of you may know whom I'm referring to.