From the Narrow Gauge Railroad Discussion Forum:
The EBT has not been sold. However a very important change has occurred that will interest all fans of the railroad. Please do not speculate, rather wait for the announcement.

Christopher D. Coleman
FEBT Webmaster
FEBT Restoration Crew Leader

[www.febt.org] Friends of the East Broad Top
[www.spikesys.com] East Broad Top Homepage
[www.ebtrr.com] East Broad Top Railroad

The announcement reportedly will be made tomorrow (May 8th) at 11:00 A. M.

Let's hope it contains some long overdue good news for this national treasure.

Frederick G. Bailey

So, there's an announcement to say that there will be an announcement?

But we're not supposed to speculate what the announcement might be?

This has been a very strange PR campaign. Let's hope (can we do that?) it's great news!

I think that link needs spoiler tags

So far I've had two e-mails on this, paraphrased:
"Let heaven and nature sing!"
"I don't got a good feeling about this dude, bub......"

So, when we're allowed to discuss this........ could someone tell us what we're really supposed to think about this? The devil is always in the details, and though I welcome any serious effort to arrest what had looked like a death spiral in a "commercial" sense, on the other hand..........

So, when we're allowed to discuss this........ could someone tell us what we're really supposed to think about this? The devil is always in the details, and though I welcome any serious effort to arrest what had looked like a death spiral in a "commercial" sense, on the other hand..........[/quote]

Sandy,

I welcome an intelligent and rational discussion of the pros and cons of this move. My initial reaction is positive, but I want to read dissenting opinions. Besides, I'll be railfanning in Albany this weekend, so I won't have to delete any flame wars that may erupt for the next 48 hours.

Kevin Gillespie
Moderator, RYPN

Wanna pass me the fire extinguisher? Or am I gonna have to borrow the fire truck? <;-D

I think its a smart move on all parties parts.

For the K's...they are giving an outside group a chance to see if the railroad can become a financially viable tourist attraction with new blood and ideas, and if successful, allows them to pass it off to a non profit... and it also allows the K's the opprotunity to take it back shoud this new group fail miserably ....(think Kyle Railways and the various operators of the C&TS that have ebbed and flowed good and bad to and from that railroad)......Should they see failure and they take it back, the K's will then be able to either continue operations on their own or dissolve the entire operation and scrap it recouping their losses...which you all have to admit, they're on borrowed time.

For the outside parties, (residents, local businesses, railfans, tourists, preservationists, FEBT, RTY) it too gives chances to see the continued operation of a major draw to the local area and keeps the preservation aspect going and keeps the various entities in business. Seriously, what is the draw to that area outside of the Railroad?

Lets back up the plan and keep a positive approach to this. New blood, new ideas and new money is needed. Whether this group will be able to achive the goals in place is yet to be determined.

Otherwise, I think its the end of the road for the place. The infrastructure is more rapidly returning to nature than ever before (outside of the Orbisonia shops which the FEBT is doing a supurb job stabalizing).

Two thumbs up from me.

"He said he planned to begin seeking money to reopen about six miles of track from the current end of operations into Mount Union, where the railroad transferred coal and other freight to the Pennsylvania Railroad in a dual-gauge yard."

That would be sooooooo cool........but it would involve some right-of-way issues including a paved-over grade crossing at the entrance to a super market parking lot in Mount Union.

Sloan

I think we all believe there had to be change to assure the preservation of the railroad.

So, in this case change is probably good, but all change is scary, so we will all ask questions which may not have clear intimidate answers.

Mr K and his son were scrappers, who didn't scrap the railroad, and instead operated it for the benefit of the community. Scrappers, no matter how benevolent are still not railroad operators... Yet, they have operated the railroad for the last 55 or so years, preserving in place the site.

The new owner is has recently been managing the Altona museum, but is better known for operating pizza restaurants.

The railroad and site need more than they can provide if the site can survive... so change is needed. Let us hope that this is the right change.

Discussion on the topic welcome... like always we moderators watch. This is am important progression in railroad preservation so clearly on target.

Randy,
Your always friendly moderator

While I'm as thrilled as anyone to know the EBT's fortunes may be taking a turn for the better, let's consider the realities for a moment. First of all, the current operating line between Rockhill Furnace and Colgate Grove is in dire need of ties, ballast, surfacing and joint tightening. The long fill at Ronks Road must be stabilized. This work alone will run into the hundreds of thousands, especially if done by an outside contractor.

Reopening the line to Mount Union will require cubic dollars. First of all, removal of 50-plus years of growth in and on and around the track structure. Then, 100 percent replacement of ties, followed by ballast and surfacing. Reconstruction of at least half a dozen public road crossings. Rehabilitation of every drainage way. Most daunting, the replacement of hundreds of thousands of cubic yards of fill material , plus rail and ties, on the half-mile long fill south of the concrete arch bridge near Shirleysburg. (This boney fill burned about 25 years ago, and the ash remains were carried away by floodwaters.) Once in Mount Union, construction of a turning facility, since the wye no longer exists.

The question is whether reopening the line beyond Colgate Grove will generate additional revenue to offset the cost of rehabilitation, not to mention additional wear and tear on locomotives and rolling stock. Get the currently operating portion of the line up to snuff, restore a second steam locomotive, beef up the operating schedule and passenger amenities and increase the bottom line -- only then contemplate restoration of additional track.

Thank God.

Someone finally broke that Code of Silence.

I'll be next. I got crucified online for doing the same thing a few years ago. I think I still have enemies in the photo charter business because of it.

And before someone answers with the mocking retort of "are you a qualified FRA track inspector?" that they used last time: I believe Wayne is, and I have a friend and fellow preservationist who was/is (former Conrail) and said the same thing as Wayne EIGHT YEARS AGO.

Not only does the above have to happen, but it has to happen YESTERDAY. One derailment, fill/bridge collapse, one injury-producing incident (parted drawbar, failed brake, whatever)--and it's all over not just for the EBT, but virtually EVERY small-scale operation. If "the unthinkable" happens, we will be counting on the fingers of maybe one hand the number of surviving steam excursion operations, and ticket prices for an ordinary ride may look like "engineer for an hour' prices do now.

There are two obstacles to a proper repair job, besides just money. First, the proper amount of ballast to rebuild the line/fills is going to have to come BY THE TRAINLOAD, not just a casual dump truck load here and there. Gad, right now I'm envisioning NS bringing in a Ballast Express or Rock Runner train to Mt. Union and the EBT regauging it with three-foot trucks!

Second, the scope of the job is going to require not just cubic dollars for ties, but LOTS of labor. But it's been done. Wayne and I have both seen the miracles that occur at the WW&F when a team of unskilled, semi-skilled, and experienced laborers (and even my wife) coordinates on a long weekend. The FEBT work sessions are terrific, but they're a small militia when a large army is needed. In order for that to happen on the EBT, however, the EBT HAS to grant the necessary permission, as well as secure either the ties or the funding for same.

And I'm sorry to beat a freakin' dead iron horse (#16 or #18?) for the umpteenth time: I can't afford to donate ties, money, or labor to a private corporation, no matter how much I may like them. Make it a non-profit preservation entity and guarantee a future for the place, and I'll wear out my car commuting up there to bust my back, and fill the car with willing warm bodies.

Just this morning, two fellow preservationists (one of them mentioned above) and I hashed out a hare-brained scheme in the middle of the farmers' market parking lot to set up a corporation to get paid Bacon-Davis wages to fix the EBT, then donate the monies back to the FEBT. It looks like such shenanigans may not be needed--but track repairs, yes.

There is certainly truth to that statement, however it is framed in the context of safety being compromised to the point of a bad accident happening. I appreciate the concern, but is it overly negative? This can easily be avoided, and it seems to be practiced, with frequent inspections, repairs, by compensating for bad track conditions with slow track speeds. To my knowledge this is current EBT practice. Safety with marginal track relies on management and operating crews being responsible. Keeping ahead of the track repairs, and having better than necessary track, is certainly one of the best ways to improve the safety factor.



That is an interesting idea, however we know that for the near term is is not practicable. Trucks will have to do for the Orbisonia-Colgate Grove reconstruction. For a significant extension, wouldn't it be nice to have a new transload facility will at Mt Union? Eventually, why not use the nearby ganister rock quarry with narrow gauge trains for the reconstruction to Robertsdale?

Also- What is a "proper repair job?" Seems like marginal improvement would be cheaper than 60mph mainline. Maybe that is all that is needed for now



You apparently are using the WW&F model for your perspective on how this work would be done. It is a great way to use volunteer labor to rebuild several hundred feet of track at a time, and might be a good way to begin the extensions of the EBT. For reconstruction, I think we would be better served by using the methods of the C&TS reconstructing its line in the past couple years. Mechanical equipment replaced most track labor 60 years ago, I see no reason to go back.

Some Discussion on Recent C&TS Track Work
http://ngdiscussion.net/phorum/read.php?1,104268,104445#msg-104445



I posed this perspective to some people who were talking about restarting the FEBT after a faltering effort in the 1980s. Those guys said that they could not wait for the "correct" historical preservation entities to show up, the work had to get done sooner than later. And while extension of the railroad is in everyone's wish list, keeping what is there now from falling down was (and is) more important.

With this proposition of a new preservation group, though, roles and missions will need to be examined. How does this new group and the FEBT co-exist, with cooperation and the best interest of the artifacts (and even the living railroad culture) in mind? I am not sure, and hope for the best.



I don't think we need to worry about the aspect of Bacon-Davis, and it seems focusing on that issue would muddy the issue of the new EBT operator and possible future grants. Across the nation, for every project that is federally funded, which is a large proportion, these wages apply. I don't think this is the forum to settle that issue, and it would make me sad if this thread took a downward spiral. Lets figure out how to make the EBT preservation work.

Since the WW&F has been mentioned already, could EBT not secure track laborers the way WW&F once did? Awhile back, they needed a trestle built and a USMC Reserve combat engineer battalion needed a place to practice their craft, so they helped each other out.

Its not the "army" of volunteers that ADM4 says is needed...but it IS a Marine battalion. (And yes I realize that joke was terrible. No need to inform the moderators, kindly put down the pitchforks and torches.)

As for track conditions, I know for a fact that FRA visited the EBT a year or two ago. They checked out the engine, and I believe they looked into track conditions as well, with no cause for concern found. I will try to double check this for sure, or perhaps the person who told me (a member of this forum) could confirm or deny.

For the record, I am no longer a qualified track inspector, having left railroad employment some eight years ago. However, I still look at track and help repair and maintain track on a fairly regular basis. I was simply trying to make the point that the current operational track on the EBT is substantially worse than it was when I first began riding the railroad in 1966. The schedule called then for the train to make a round trip in under one hour, and I daresay to attempt so today would tempt fate.

As for ballast, there is a large quarry in Black Log, just a couple of miles down the road from Rockhill Furnace, and a ramp could easily be built to facilitate dumping from tri-axles directly into a dozen refurbished hopper cars for spreading ballast. Three-foot gauge automatic tampers exist and one might be leased for the duration.