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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Location: Beaumont, Texas
The early steamships burned coal, while the early steam locomotives burned wood. When steamships switched to the more readily available oil, and locomotives to coal, they probably caused a massive infrastructure dissue as well.

The switch of the railroads from steam to diesel did not occur in a vacuum. Tugs, ferries, and many other vessels in the early 1950s were also powered by steam engines; your oil rigs were powered by steam, many factories were powered by steam as well.

The coal strikes of the 1950s, the new competition with fuel oil for feedstocks by plastics, and the rise of the environmental movement all during the 1950s and 1960s caused steam to retreat from all of these areas; until it was all but gone by the 1980s.

What has been amazing to watch is how many of the remaining relicts have been swept away since the year 2000; thanks in part to high scrap metal and fuel prices, coupled with a growing disinterest by the general public. I used to sell a CD of surviving steamboats and steamships worldwide; of the 2853 boats and ships I documented from about 2000, 200+ have been scrapped; 60+ sunk as gunnery targets, artifical reefs, or by accident, 135 are derelict, another ten or so are facing uncertain futures. the Katy shops in Waco (Bellmead) are coming down as I type this:

http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/sho ... hp?t=28505

We have gone through phases like this, (alot of steamships went to the breakers emass in the 1970s), this is just the latest.

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
nathansixchime wrote:
You hit it, Richard.

I'd thought about the canal ways and sea vessel industries, but canals didn't require a vast mechanical presence and manpower in the same way that ship building or railroads did


I respectfully disagree. For its time, the canal industry probably had the largest, and most far flung infrastructure in the country. Not only were there the "ditches" themselves, but precision engineered and finely crafted locks and aqueducts, and a whole secondary layer of support structures in the form of dams, sluice gates and spillways that were necessary to maintain the water level in the canals. The fact that so much of this is no longer evident just points out how much has disappeared, not that it didn't exist at one time.

Northern Illinois was the western fringes of the canal industry, but the National Park Service has done a pretty good job of preserving and interpreting the industry in the I&M Canal National Historic Corridor:

http://www.nps.gov/ilmi/
http://dnr.state.il.us/lands/landmgt/parks/i&m/main.htm%5ClTrail
http://www.lewisu.edu/imcanal/photoarchive/index.htm?col=1

Preserved and restored are examples of a canal lock and lock keeper's house; at least two aqueducts; and not preserved but still extant is an example of a grain elevator located in Seneca at canal side for the transshipment of grain to canal boats.

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:07 pm 

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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Cable cars were another wholesale abandonment, before the infrastructure was worn out. They were replaced by electric streetcars.

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:20 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:03 pm
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Dennis Storzek wrote:

I respectfully disagree. For its time, the canal industry probably had the largest, and most far flung infrastructure in the country.


My ignorance is my bias. Thank you, Dennis.


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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Location: Beaumont, Texas
The greatest remaining exhibit of infrastructure dissue I can think of; Witte's Marine Boatyard:

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&c ... ne=2302652

Most of it is car barges and steam powered stuff, including tugs and ferries, that were retired in the span of a few short years during the 1960s-1970s. Witte bought them all for scrapping; but bought more at once than he could salvage and break up, and stuff started stacking up in his yard. A fire in the yard in the 1080s further hampered salvage efforts, along with the continued destruction by neglect. (Lost in the fire was a wooden barge packed full of steam gauges and pumps salvaged from the various vessels.) They will probably be there for eternity; now that life has sprung around the wrecks; they cannot be removed for environmental reasons. A visual exhibit of how quickly carfloats, ferries, and steamboats disappeared at about the same time steam locomotives did; for various reasons; itself greatly deminished from breaking up, fires, and boats sinking into the muck.

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 2:51 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:57 pm
Posts: 247
Location: Birmingham, AL
Somewaht related....
At the same time diesels were taking over, the RR passenger business was on the decline and eventually died except for Amtrak. When that happened the railroads couldn't tear down or somehow sell depots, especially in small towns, fast enough. Having to pay taxes based on the valuation, it was in their best interest to sell or demolish them. Then in the late sixties many of the larger depots and stations began to bite the dust. Birmingham, Al terminal station was demolished in 1969 and Birmingham has been whining over that mistake ever since. (It was offered to the city).

While the infastructure of depots, and the fates all who were employed there, was not a result of steam going away, it began in the same era.
How many beautiful examples of architecture have been lost or are so far gone they might as well be demolished?

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:25 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:25 am
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Back in the late 40's, a Southern California musician/composer/ entrepreneur started a record company. He had what he thought was a golden opportunity to "vertically integrate" his business when a record-pressing plant came up for sale at a bargain price. Too late, he found that the machinery was only usable for cranking out 78-rpm platters, just as 45's and LP were taking over.
We could also mention radio tubes (our British friends call them "valves"). They were widely used in locomotive radios as late as 1970, but the only people other than vintage-radio collectors who use them now are musicians, who send to Russia for "Svetlana" brand tubes for their guitar and bass amplifiers. I once wrote an essay on things that disappeared in the 1950's, both in entertainment and transport. Anyone want to buy a slide rule?

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:16 am
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Slide rule? I think I still have a K&E log-log-decitrig that is a double length version. That must be a real collectors item now, probably worth a couple of dollars or less.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:31 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:10 pm
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Location: Iron City
More recently, the telephone network based upon twisted pairs of copper wire is evolving toward a cellular and fiber-optic based construction.

DPK

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:31 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:21 pm
Posts: 105
In the telephone industry, not only are copper wires being replaced with fiber optics, electromechanical switching systems have been replaced with electronic digital systems. The most technically advanced electromechanical switching systems included components that were essentially computers implemented with relays. Today, these systems reside only in museums located in Seattle Washington, Ellsworth Maine, and a few other locations.

John


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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:00 pm 

Good discussion ongoing here.

I agree with the first post. The change from steam to diesel, with the resulting removal of shops, tanks, helper districts, coal supplies, etc represented a change nationwide on a scale not seen before. Mines were localized, waterways covered maybe 30% of the county - trains cover 100%.

Jim


  
 
 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:52 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Bowie, MD
survivingworldsteam wrote:
The greatest remaining exhibit of infrastructure dissue I can think of; Witte's Marine Boatyard:


For fun, sort of similar is the ghost fleet of Mallows Bay, south of Washington DC:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=washington,+dc&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.690438,83.935547&ie=UTF8&ll=38.472978,-77.26779&spn=0.009357,0.020492&t=h&z=16

More of the story:

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/naturalresource/winter2001/ghostship.html

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:39 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:46 am
Posts: 203
Location: here, there, wherever
What about the iron furnace industry? Around my neck of the woods (south-central PA) we had dozens of iron furnaces, with associated company towns, railroads, dump sites, casting houses, etc. They had a time span of 1850-1900ish. There are still plenty of remains of the furnaces hidden and not-so-hidden in the woods here.

http://www.rivertownes.org/Features/Fur ... rnaces.htm


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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:25 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
Jim Lundquist wrote:
Good discussion ongoing here.

I agree with the first post. The change from steam to diesel, with the resulting removal of shops, tanks, helper districts, coal supplies, etc represented a change nationwide on a scale not seen before. Mines were localized, waterways covered maybe 30% of the county - trains cover 100%.

Jim


But the question wasn't if this was the largest abandonment of facilities, but rather if this is the "first time":

Quote:
I wondered: Was the end of steam the first wholesale abandonment of products from the industrial revolution?


As the messages about canals, mines, iron furnaces, cable cars, and interurbans show, clearly it's not. In fact, it seems it's rather normal to have whole industries disappear with hardly a trace as their technology is eclipsed.

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 Post subject: Re: The End of Steam: The first en masse infrastructure dissue?
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 9:59 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1755
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
The end of Railroad Steam Locomotion was probably the 1st nation wide industrial upheaval. The mining, metals, milling, and canal upheavals were more localized, took a longer time, and often involved geographical relocations, instead of wholesale extinctions.
Other upheavals which also affected railroads were the ends of gender and racial segregation, which left the railroads (and many others) with redundant somewhat duplicate waiting rooms, drinking fountains, and other facilities.


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