Are there any catalogues or similar materials out there describing, with pictures preferably, the Hale and Kilburn product line for the 1905-10 era?

wrj494@aol.com

> Are there any catalogues or similar
> materials out there describing, with
> pictures preferably, the Hale and Kilburn
> product line for the 1905-10 era?

Anything in particular in mind? I have a xerox of a catalogue.

> Anything in particular in mind? I have a
> xerox of a catalogue.
Yes, actually I do. Pullman specs for 1246 call for 32 H&K #77 reversable seats and 4 stationary. The seating plan called for longitudinal seats at the ends of each row opposite the toilets and for fixed seats with backs to each toilet thus accounting for the 4 stationary seats. Longitudinal stationary seats have arm rests at each end. Nothing is said about the seats with the backs to the toilets although the plan shows them as narrower than the regular seats. I want to get pictures of these stationary seats with the ultimate goal of finding some in the "flesh". Interior photos never seem to show details at the ends of the cars.

wrj494@aol.com

Just found this thread while doing a search for 'Hale & Kilburn'. Did you ever find a catalogue? I am after one as well.

There was one for sale at http://www.classicrail.com/books.html

It has long since sold (I just checked) but their web site list hasn't been updated since 2000 by the look of it - very frustrating! :-)

Regards,
Rob

Here is the book listing for reference:

38: 'Hale & Kilburn Company "Seats and Chairs", Catalog of seating for trolley, interurbans, suburbans, and buses. Includes 26 styles of reversing seats, 37 styles of non-reversing seats including parlor, reclining chairs, and motorman's seats. View of BMT subway interior, 8 views of car interiors showing seating configurations, circa 1920s. 80 pp. 6" by 9", cover good (some damage), inside excellent, $38

We have three Hale & Kilbourn's that serve as interpretative displays in our depot and combine. All are of C&GT/ GT/GTW heritage, and have the green velvet with the gold star print pattern. I'd be happy to take detailed shots if it would help.

TJG

TJ

I would very much appreciate if you could take some detailed photos of the fabric and send them to me as well. Our ex C&WC/Georgia Northern No.38 combine , supposedly built 1914, has H&K seating. The material currently on the seats looks like old, hard leather or a more modern heavy vinyl, but I honestly have not gotten that far into the interior restoration yet. This could help, though. The push pads on the swinging door between the main passenger compartment and the smoking compartment has a green, almost olive color, velvet fabric. I need to look at it more closely, but the thought has been that this may be closer to what might have been original than what is on the seats now.

Our seats have full wood armrests that bolt to a metal end-plate on the frame, not just a wood top armrest piece. If I remember correctly, the latest patent date is 1911 on the cast steel reversible back end caps/receivers that face the aisle. (I'd like to know what all these parts are actually called!). We will need to acquire at least 5 or so similar seats to replace the ones missing in the smoking compartment (4 seat frames w/ cushions) and one in the main compartment that rusted away. Maybe another 2 if we relocate the stove to it's original position.

The fixed bench seats mounted adjacent to the men's toilet (on the left facing the vestibule end of the car, from inside) and a bench across the aisle that backs up against and interior bulkhead where the wash basin is located, are shaped sort of like a shallow "P" with the loop at the aisle end of the bench. The frame is rectangular, but the bench seat cushion buldges out slightly as the cushion edge approaches the center aisle. I can't post any photos, but if anything like this is in the catalogue you have, Pete, that might be of interest to me as well.

Thanks.

Thanks for that. The pics would be most interesting.

What I am also particularly interested in is whether the seat frames show a U.S. Patent number and date.

I am also after a copy of a H&K trade catalog, showing the types of car seats produced by the company.

Stephen -
The green velvet color sure sounds like what we have on the seats. Ditto on the armrests, with the excpetion of one of our seats, which has the standard wood instead of metal.
Its interesting you mention the smoking compartment: in our car, the smoking car seats were fixed, and as such, were the only originals east left in the car. They are made of ash, or at least they originally were, although a couple of arms looks like they were replaced with pine at one point (ours were painted pretty early on in their history). They sound very similar in description to your seats that mount to bathroom wall, which is behind our smoking section.

TJG

The green woolen velour fabric door plate mentioned is also remaining in the old Central of Georgia paritioned first class coach, later used as a Jim Crow partioned coach, now at Eureka Springs. It is applied to the swinging spring hinged hallway doors either side of the smoking compartment. Identical fabric would have been used for upholstering the seats.

I wonder how much greener the color was originally?

Wooden ends for seats were reproduced (I believe) by Andrew Dahm at Colorado RR Museum several years ago for walkover seats frames.

Have you checked the cyclopedias? I seem to recall some good drawings in them. Mine aren't handy right now to browse through.

dave

I have the 1879 Car Builder's Dictionary (1949 reprint), but other Car Builder's Dictionaries/Cyclopedias are a bit hard to find in Australia.

Do any have Hale & Kilburn ads?

~~ Rob

Hey, Dave, TJ makes a good point. Although I have not really had a chance to look at the interior details, I have wondered about the missing seating in the smoking compartment. (Still waiting for something to get moving on the exterior restoration at you-know-where, but let's don't go there now ;>) .) Since you have at least seen the car, do you think the smoking compartment seats might have been fixed instead of walkover backs? What are the smoking compartment seats like in the CG car (No. 167)?

The smoking compartment seats are two facing fixed bench seats with a bulkhead behind each. I don't have a measurement handy, but the whole compartment is not much more than about 6 feet square.

That car needs to go you know where - but after some serious stabilization. It would provide a very good interpretive function, given it was used as a Jim Crow on the Alabama divisions, and is still set up that way.

dave

> Anything in particular in mind? I have a
> xerox of a catalogue.
Yes, actually I do. Pullman specs for 1246 call for 32 H&K #77 reversable seats and 4 stationary. The seating plan called for longitudinal seats at the ends of each row opposite the toilets and for fixed seats with backs to each toilet thus accounting for the 4 stationary seats. Longitudinal stationary seats have arm rests at each end. Nothing is said about the seats with the backs to the toilets although the plan shows them as narrower than the regular seats. I want to get pictures of these stationary seats with the ultimate goal of finding some in the "flesh". Interior photos never seem to show details at the ends of the cars. ----

With regard to the wood car drawings at the IRM Pullman Library, there is one drawing of the H & K type 77 seat end. For others information, the following H &K numbers have drawings associated with them:
73, 73s, 77, 83, 86, 87, 88, 94, 97, 178, 177, and 197.
For other manufacturers, there are also a fair number of Scarrit seat drawings. Of course, there are special Pullman seats associated with a particular car, railroad, and seat type.

With regard to toilet seat covers, there are so many it would be difficult to locate one without detailed information (Pullman went overboard on that one). For more information, please keep in mind that the database is an ongoing effort and will require far more work to permit detailed scanning, although most of the available drawings are now entered.

For my work on the B&M cafe coach at IRM, I have put aside stationary and walkover seats, H & K #197, from a SOO wood combine scrapped by the railroad years ago.

As before, we may be contacted at the Pullman Library, Illinois Railway Museum, P O Box 427, Union, IL 60180, and can be reached by phone on Wednesdays, 10 am to 4:30 pm at 815-923-2020.
Sincerely, Ted Anderson, curator

Based on your observations, I would suspect that the smoking compartment seats were probably the same design as the fixed bench seats adjacent to the bathroom on the vestibule end. If that is the case, or likely to be the case, I could take the two examples we have and replicate them instead of having to worry about the metal seat frames and bases for the walkover seats. I wonder if the seat coverings (fabric) would be the same in the main compartment and in the smoking compartment?

There was mention in the H&K patent thread of Strasburg having a reproduction Type 97 H&K seat available. Can someone point me to a photo of one of these seats? That might be what I will need to replace the missing seats in the main passenger compartment of the C&WC/Georgia Northern combine, built by AC&F at the Jackson & Sharp Wilmington, DE facility, by the way.

The 167 is to be moved, but I was told it was supposed to happen in March. I don't know if it has actually been acquired or not, but the site manager went out with the consultant and they decided to get it. Apparently there is still a problem with funding and how the funds may be spent.

I know where it would be if the money were available to move and restore it, but that will never happen.

[quote="Stephen S. Syfrett"]
The 167 is to be moved, but I was told it was supposed to happen in March. I don't know if it has actually been acquired or not, but the site manager went out with the consultant and they decided to get it. Apparently there is still a problem with funding and how the funds may be spent.
ppen.[/quote

Funny how a purportedly terrible idea 5 years ago has become a good idea since. Someday I might write a book, but nobody would believe it isn't fiction.

Never is a long time, but I have to agree with you on this one.

I don't think you will go wrong using the same fabric on all upholstered seats.

dave