I was sent this through an email.
Len.

" From http://www.poconorecord.%20com:

http://www.poconore%20cord.com/%20apps/pbcs.%20dll/article?%20AID=/20090608/%20NEWS/90608007

Environmental study clears way for commuter rail project to move forward

June 08, 2009
The Scranton-to- Hoboken, N.J., rail project in the works for more than a decade, has received special federal designation allowing it to move forward.

The Environmental Protection Agency has declared a Finding of No Significant Impact for the entire project, meaning the project – after a 30-day public comment period – can move to securing funding for the engineering and construction phases.


The $550 million project, which includes stops along the line in the Poconos, now could be completed within four to five years, according to Larry Malski, chief operating officer of the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Railroad Authority.


“There are hundreds of projects in the country hoping to get to this point,” Malski said. “This puts us in a different category.”


Read more in tomorrow’s Pocono Record.


Rich Dean, Butler, New Jersey USA 07405
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http://www.yahoogroups.%20com/group/%20Railpics
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http://www.yahoogroups.%20com/group/%20RoadsideFans "

Mr. Shaner,

Many of us have been following this for a number of decades and are aware of the various issues involved. Now would you be so kind as to give us a short essay on how this relates to preservation per se.

GME

IMHO it relates to preservation because if true, it means the rebuilding of a historic passenger corridor can now take place.

In theory, I could claim that a rail-to-trail project "preserves a historic rail corridor." Or, say, the reinstatement of an Amtrak train over a previously passenger-less route (say, the North Coast Limited route or to Roanoke) is "rail preservation."

You're both really grasping at straws, as the saying goes.

The analogy which I would use, similar to brother Mitchell's, is that construction of a modern commuter/regional intercity passenger route, albeit duplicating a former intercity passenger route, is, in and of itself, historical preservation only to the extent that I-95 between New Haven and Boston can be considered to be the preservation of the stage coach route.

There will almost certainly be preservation issues relating to specifics of the construction and I am looking forward to those discussions. I am merely asking Brother Shaner to relate his post to the perceived purpose of the list.

GME

If we are going to post about the Lackawanna Cutoff, I think we are premature. I will believe it to be reality when I see a construction crew somewhere along the way.

From a preservation point of view it will be interesting to see what is done to rehab the Delaware River Viaduct and, to a lesser extent, the Paulins Kill Viaduct. The story that I hear is that the Delaware River Viaduct was the first one the Lackawanna built and the mixture used was different than the later ones (I am including those on the Nicholson Cutoff project that started a few years after the Lackawanna (or New Jersey) Cutoff.

The station and tower at Greenville sit empty but in pretty good condition and worthy of preservation. About 3 years ago the station at Johnsonburg was torn down. After a number of years as a radio station, the Blairstown station is now the office for a waste haulage business. Several bridges along the line have been repaired or replaced - all of them have been built to match the original style.

For us at ELDCPS the drea would be to someday operate our cars from Scranton to Hoboken and recreate the "Lake Cities". I think on a special occasion we could operate a trip so people in the Scranton area could see a Broadway show, see the Christmas time windows along 5th Avenue, etc. Our diner 741 was on the very last westbound passenger train over the Cutoff, it would be neat if it could be on the very first one on the restored line east.

A greater preservation problem is that the construction of the modern commuter/regional intercity passenger route, will to a great extent erase evidence of the historic route... We are see this on the rebuilt Virginia and Truckee in Nevada... The new construction destroys the remains of the original railroad. Where you could previously explore, finding 140 year old rock work, adjacent mine and mill sites, you now find a modern railroad on a much enlarged roadbed with little resemblance to the V&T.

Similarly the continuing reconstruction of the Caltrain corridor between San Francisco and San Jose is slowly erasing any evidence of the historic Southern Pacific route... The ultimate benefit will be real high speed rail, but we will lose all historic features except for a handful of historic depots, some moved back away from the tracks (and converted to museums or restaurants....) We will loose and other buildings near by, any "old" bridges, all older masonry, and may loose "The Palo Alto" a redwood tree named by Spanish Explorers, which gave its name to a local city. Grade separations will change the railroad's relationship to the communities it passes through.

By the way, I support the Caltrain improvements... but I do recognize the changes it will bring, and the loss of historic fabric.

Well, I dare say, they are talking about rebuilding a line that sees regularly scheduled steam excursions from a significant US museum. And the impact upon that seems to be undefined.

Rob

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't OERM aka OET also about to having the "commuter rail encroachment" problem/opportunity, sharing the Perris doepot with Metrolink?

Hi everyone! Here are some links about this staright from NJ Transit!

Overall project scope
http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet. ... oject019To

Specifics about the historical bridges.
http://www.njtransit.com/pdf/Appendix%2 ... rt%201.pdf

Looks like for now they want to keep it the way it was. Can you guys picture C&O 614 and B&M 3713 pulling a excursion across the Delaware! Oh I guess we can all dream!!!!!!

The restoration of passenger service on the Pocono main will inevitably impact Steamtown and the operations of the Delaware-Lackawanna;s fleet of historic ALCos. But I am not focusing on that. Instead, I want to convey to you the possibilities for preservation especially under NJ Transit stewardship and influence.

Let’s begin with NJT.

No single entity has done more to preserve the physical remains of the DL&W than NJT. From pristine station restorations to restored – rather than replaced – bridges, the DL&W shines. The crowning touch, literally, was their replacement of the long-gone Hoboken Terminal clock tower resplendent with illuminated letters reading “LACKAWANNA” rather than NJ TRANIST. Really, really classy,
Now, out on the line in question, there exist at least 8 depots, 3 freight houses and 6 towers. Their current condition ranges from fully restored to adaptively reused to totally abandoned. At least 2 are under current restoration.

The bridges, most notably the Paulins Kill Viaduct and the Delaware River bridge are architectural wonders from the Lackawanna’s monumental modernization with concrete, Most of the towers left, and two of the depots, also represent this era.
Assuming that the project does not demolish any bridges or historic lineside structures, what will we lose?

Well, for one thing, we will probably lose all the classic abandoned Lackawanna signal targets and bridges that still dot the line. We’ll also undoubtedly lose the jointed rail that makes the Steamtown run such an authentic mainline “clickety-clack” steam experience.

On the other had, we’ll probably see more depots restored and a manicured right of way the likes of which the Poconos haven’t seen in 50 years.

And, if handled right, we’ll see modern passenger trains mixing it up with steam trains and revenue freights hauled by vintage diesels.

It will be quite a show,

Rob


Of course, it already is a pretty special line, in a state of abandoned grace on the east end, and the west end literally hopping with steam and ALCos. I know, I know, the Big Boy needs paint, #565 won’t run again… blah, blah, blah… St. Louis!... #2317 won’t be back until 3011… K4!... the D-L diesels are not preserved… Camelback!... yada, yada, yada… my tax dollars!... no American engines… wah wah wah… but let me say this… when Steamtown runs a train, or the Electric City Trolley rolls down the Laurel Line or when the D-L hits the road, they both do it with class – classy employees and classy trains. And for the past 21 years things have been getting better and better for railroads in Scranton. Maybe I am spoiled, as I have had the pleasure of knowing the folks at the park, the D-L and the trolley museum. Or maybe my glasses have a rosey tint, but there is a lot to crow about up in the Lackawanna Valley and I think the passenger service has the potential to enhance all of the preservation possibilities both public and private.

Rob, read starting at page 48 on the second link I posted. For now they want to keep the bridges and tunnels. So that would an awesome excursion by steam! But who knows if they will allow steam on the tracks. They are already in the planning stages for a 7.3 mile track run to Port Morris/Andover. So only time will tell.

Steve,

They probably have no choice but to keep the tunnels and the two big bridges. It would be cost-prohibitive to replace them, I would think. It's going to be a heck of a ride when done.

NJT has a good track record with excursions and steam, but even if they didn't want Steamtown on the NJ part, the PA counties still control the west end.

My "dream" excursion for Steamtown is actually down the B&P and Bel-Del. When Norfolk Southern finally gives up that line, I will be first in line to help sponsor a Scranton to Milford trip!

Rob

I am surprised by the $550 million estimate, which seems unusually reasonable. A similar project in Massachusetts to restore service to lines with a comparable segment of (missing) track that has to be reinstalled on an existing right of way is now running around $2 billion.

PC

Yeah that tag caught me by surprise too! Not sure how they came up with that. Just the Port Morris/Andover cost is 36.6 million for 7.3 miles of track. Unless the track bed is in unusual good shape. Maybe if this ever gets to the Gap they will put the wye in so Steamtown can turn the engines around.