I would like to point out an Altoona area success story. Alan Maples and the Everett Railroad purchased ex-EL diner 741 from Conrail with the intention of using it in excursion service. When we came along in 2001 it looked like this:



We bought the car for a fair price from the Everett - essentially the value of its roller bearing trucks. We also paid the Everett a small amount to make the car good for interchange. Now after a lot of money and work the car looks like this:



At the time we bought 741 it was just another forgotten car, but at least someone did think it was worth holding on to. And yes a lot of cars will end up being scrapped after years of waiting for the restoration that never comes but once in a while someone steps forward and validates the original person who saved the car the first time.

I'm really not sure what Mr. Levin is trying to prove by these posts. As Dave pointed out, every museum has some rustry equipment on the backlot. Mr. Levin has posted photos of the cars at Altoona in the past, so it is not as if he is trying to highlight a new problem. I feel that either he is looking to start some sort of public condemnation of Altoona and its care of some of its equipment , or he is trying to get someone from Altoona to engage in some sort of self-flaggellation before this "community."

I can identify with Mr. Levin's concerns, and hope that this thread does flush out someone from the Railroaders Memorial Museum to justify their decisions not to take basic care of their collections. I would also like to see this thread become the catalyst for the deaccessioning and sale of the amusement park loco that got this thread started.

I have read quite a bit about the new turntable, roundhouse, museum building and botched K4 restoration, and I have to wonder why there wasn't a few bucks added to any of those projects to stabilize the existing rolling stock collection. It wouldn't cost much to stabilize these cars, in comparison to the mega bucks spent on the above listed projects.

BTW perhaps I do have an axe to grind, since I've never forgiven the museum for greatly restricting access to Horseshoe Curve, closing it for half the year and charging six bucks to see it when it is open.

Dumb questions:

Is one of the new Roundhouse's stalls supposed to serve as any kind of paint booth, restoration shop, etc.?

If not--why the hell not?

Regarding Brother "Steam's" lament about the RMM restricting access to the Curve, let me remind him and all: The Curve's trackside park is effectively a government-run park facility. It would have taken but one lawsuit-mad wheelchair owner--and we have it on record that there's one specifically going around suing rail-related attractions in the Northeast--to shut off ALL access to the Curve. Furthermore, I saw many, many railroad retirees struggling up those railroad-tie steps in years past. As someone who himself laments the old days of scaling the rock cliffs on the "west" side of the Curve or climbing the hills to the "east" in snowstorms to get spectacular photos, I'm willing to compromise.

How is is possible ( that some ) educated knowledgeable people in a reasonably small preservation community can defend the actions ( or lack of actions ) of a museum ( no matter if its Altoona or somewhere else )... after looking at some of the equipment in the photographs that were provided..... the poster wilkinsd.. who reiterated that "every museum has some rusty equipment in the backlot"... is is possible you do not understand that almost every piece of equipment there is rusty... and that these are not in a backlot... they are on the museum grounds ( most are )... and available for enjoyment by each paying guest....

how many years have gone by, year after year .. awaiting "something.. or for that matter "anything " to happen to this equipment..... yet the state money, continues to funnel itself to this group.... perhaps without a ill conceived K4 project, those millions could have likely paid for the roundhouse.... or for that matter could have been used to take items like the Loretto II, Harbor Springs, Jacks Narrons, and put them inside, perhaps anywhere... from the old South Altoona Foundry to Altoona Pipe and Steel, or Union Tank Car.... however that's all in the past...... however.. the K4 took millions... and things such as the $165,000.00 ( yes that's the right number ) $165,000.00 model railroad got built in the museum.... do we feel good about a $165,000 model railroad display ?? ( perhaps the same defenders of the group feel great ! ) ....

so... in the spirit of putting the past in the past.... why is it, that not one individual within the organization can share the vision of the future..??.... leave the rust behind us.... how will it all get better.. 2,3 5 years from now... ??

this is all I know.... more state money.... ( yes more and more )...to build a replica small roundhouse....to house of course the K4 ( because this engine has not caused enough grief ) ... and then... once that is built....we can stick all the "parts" in the roundhouse... and put it back together.... ( perhaps to run.. or never to run )..... and then... ( and only then ) can we take some of these rusty cars.. and put them indoors.. next to the K4 .....and finally ... get them out of the harsh Pennsylvania weather...... ok... I think that is the plan....

next step... schedule.... how long ??... personally I have no clue.... do they / don't they have the state money... I heard at one time a private donation was given to start the roundhouse, but I do not see a start.... meanwhile.... ( again ) the cars wait.. and wait....for a possible "someday" to go indoors....

now.... ( with all that said ) I do offer a positive in that.. .at some point the organization parted with the PRR sleeper Nicholas Firestone which was in about the same ( present ) condition as the Jacks Narrows and Harbor Springs...... (which went to a non railroad museum in Williamsport PA) and was restored..... a FGE reefer I believe went to a museum in Savannah...... I am not sure what happened to a RPO that had sideswipe damage... and a modernized P70 that was painted Penn Central.... however I do not believe they are in the museum yard.. ( based upon my last visit ) .... so.. perhaps someone, to a certain extent understands that this stuff is no longer appealing in its current condition.... and I welcome that kind of thinking .... there needs to be much more of that.... I think many would feel much better, if they could better communicate their mission for the future....I know I would.....

however...for those who defend and applaud their efforts in preservation ( this is a preservation forum ..right ? )..... I suspect during my next visit I will see you up at the museum's $165,000.00 model diorama .. watching a B6sb PRR switcher...move a gondola around....

( if any good can come of this.... perhaps someone from the ARRM might take a few kind moments to just allow the faithful to know what the future holds ... and we can leave the past ....( like the PRR ) in the past....)

thank you !

D.A. Levin

( and as an example to show what can happen, when you part with something.... I attach a picture of Nicholas Firestone...ex-8416, nee-Colonial Doorways) PS LW 3 DBR - 1 DR - buffet lounge. that at one time, rotted away and looked very much like the Jacks Narrows, Harbor Springs, etc in the museum yard.... just goes to show you what can happen when you part with something... now we should all feel good ... right ? )

Mr. Levin, I wouldn't hold your breath on getting a reaction from the ARRM. I'm sure how they handle business that no member speaks for the museum as a whole. And most museums shy away from getting involved in online pissing matches for good reason.

No one is really defending the ARRM. They made a slew of decisions that weren't so good looking back at them. Let's look at the little ride-on Ponyshoe curve train. the train probably just barely fits under their mission statement. It's more of an institutional item that RR history one. So instead of saying "look at this, is there perhaps a better location for it?" You resort to the all too typical "how dare they do this!' approach. The whole honey vs. Vinegar thing comes into play here. It is not like the equipment is suffering a life sentence. Items have been deaccessioned. Look at the Baldwin diesel they had. I think it went to SMS?

Now the K4s. Why did it get all that money instead of the cars? Simple. Steam is sexy. Passenger cars are not. Look at this board for proof. Most trains have one or 2 engines and a bunch of cars. Yet I would say there's more interest and posts about the locomotives. True in preservation and railfanning. When you are trying to convinve the powers to be in Harrisburg or Washington to give you money for a project, they want something that sounds good in the papers. And what sounds better than bringing a steam locomotive back to life?

The museum itself. Yeah, they kind of had big hopes and dreams when they moved into that building. But I'm guessing that was in the works late 1980s/early 90s? (I'm guessing, having no real knowledge - story of my life). Back in the days of CONRAIL and SHUSTER. Back when Altoona actually had jobs in town and at Hollidaysburg. When the company actually seemed to take pride in itself (see: Railfest). Altoona was never exactly a 'dream spot', but last time I went there? You can really see the effects. And who could forget Rep. Shuster? The man with the pork. Unfortunatley when he left office, the fountain of money dried up. And it looks like it will be awhile until his son can achieve the same level of power his old man did.

Ideally (IMO), it would have been great for the ARRM to move into a portion of the car shops in Holllidaysburg (with branchline access), but the timing was just a decade or 2 off.

As far as the cars? Welcome to Pennsylvania. If it is metal, it rusts. sure you could spend money stabilizing them, but a better solution would be a building. And a building isn't much help unless you have climate control. In the end, is it worth spending a little now when you will have to spend more later anyhow? I don't know. Easy choice to make when you have nothing, though.

PS. I found it kind of ironic that you complain about the model trainset they have, even though this whole thread started out about a model train. Kind of ironic...

I talked to the president of the local railroad museum (NRHS) and asked them why their choo choos were all rusty and in disrepair. They told me that A) Those choo choos are not going anywhere...they are fine just like they are. And he told me B) Every time we try to get somebody to paint one of the cars they just try to take advantage of us. So I asked how much he thought it should cost to paint and patch a passenger car...he told me $2000-3000 dollars.

With a mindset like that why are we not surprised that all the choo choos are falling apart?

I have learned in all of my years in participating this board, and with my involvemet in railway preservation that it is very easy to sit behind the keyboard and hurl criticism at an organization/museum/NRHS group/historical society for not taking care of their equipment. Righteous indignation is cheap. The hard part is actually working to preserve, protect, restore, and operate historic equipment.



I'm not really defending ARRM. I'm just saying that those who live in glass houses shouldn't hurl stones. I can think of many museums who, through bad management, lack of volunteer labor, lack of resources, lack of money have committed the sins you rail against. In other posts, you first lament the ARHS because of the condition of their F3B shell, but then praise them when you find out they face money, location, and volunteer challenges. I guess when one declares themself to be the Grand Inquisitor of railway preservation, as long as you like the answer, you let the organization off of the hook.



The real question is, who made you the arbiter of good musuem practice? Even if someone from ARRM came on the board to share their "vision," why should they have to? Just because railway preservation happens outside the scope, "eyes," and "ears" of this board doesn't mean is does not happen. Just because the regualrs at RYPN aren't statisfied doesn't make the challenges a museum faces any less valid. While I'm not acquainted with the organization, I can bet you dimes to dollars that their answer, if they felt the need to answer your interrogatories would be "time, labor (volunteer or otherwise) and money are the barriers to your vision of the future of ARRM. Which ones are you willing to contribue?

My point is that it is easy to sit here and badmouth other museums for their lack of vision, resources, poor management, poor planning, etc. Having served on the board of a musuem once, I can attest as to the difficulty of "making it happen" even when one has a vision in place. You can say "lets restore car number 1234" all you want, but until you get the labor, resources, and ability, it's all just talk. You can also say "let's offer car 2345 to a 'qualified preservation organization" as well, but the likely outcome is that the other "right" museum has the same problems you have.

to the poster wilkinsd... I respect your opinion however I will share a few things... First off... I suspect the first common element in the problem for most museum's and private individual restorations is money... Without money, you can't buy the wire, can't buy the paint, can't buy the glass.. trust me I know, I funded out of my pocket the restoration, maintenance and operation of a 1916 heavyweight Amtrak compatible open platform private car... and as we speak I am completing a second car... again, not funded with federal, state or local government money... I am not tax exempt.. and before I start, I create a budget and a timeline... Why is this important, because you leave out that this group has gone through millions not thousands... multi millions of state money... and the results on physical equipment is virtually non existent... Give any museum in this country the money that has filtered through Altoona, and I suspect a good portion of any museum collection would look like cars in a new show room.... with the money they have been given... they could have subcontracted out the cosmetic restorations of certain cars... while using portions of that money to construct a indoor facility.... truth be known, the specialized labor needed to restore any of that equipment, will likely never happen on the property... it will likely someday have to be removed .... Example.. when the museum in Green Bay received grant money for a Pullman Porter exhibit... they shipped their heavyweight Pullman to a specialized shop with a proven track record... it took money.. yet the results were fantastic... when a museum in the north central portion of the country wanted to restore a historic 'fish" transport car, they raised the money, and selected a qualified shop... The historic equipment in Altoona can't afford to wait for the "someday" of a shop being built... Unfortunately the money has all been spent... and today the Pennsylvania residents can see the results of a lack of preservation policy... its that plain.. and that simple.... it might not be a popular discussion... yet there are lessons to be learned... not just in the K4 management... but the rest of the equipment which languishes day in and day out...in Altoona Tuscan Red more resembles Rustoleum rusty metal primer....

I praise the Anthracite Group for doing what they can.. given their limited financial resources and limited manpower.... along with the fact that they did not hide and spoke of their accomplishments along with things that they need to improve on... Yet the Anthracite Group to my knowledge did not get millions, thousands or likely hundreds from the federal, state or local government.... I would support their efforts 100 times over.. as at least money given to that group would not get wasted. and their small accomplishments are ( in my opinion ) greater than the accomplishments on the equipment at ARRM.. over the same amount of years..

Secondly... ( if we can somehow get beyond the fact that the ARRM have burned through millions of dollars ).... the next task is specialized labor / skill.... it likely does not exist with the local museum members or even the local NRHS group ( which has done pretty good work .. again given their limited resources ) ... so who is going to do this work ?? ( a speciality shop.. if you really want a museum quality restoration )... again.. because the museum does not have a facility to do this work, nor the labor....

As a preservation community.... any group given those resources could have done great things.... however even the ARM newsletter in the past, indicated specifically the poor condition of the equipment displayed at ARRM... so its not just me.. even the ARM newsletter can see it....

( in conclusion )

if the ARRM has limited to no information on their web site about the equipment or restoration plans, if they don't share the vision of the future with a forum dedicated to preservation, if they don't communicate the future plans with say the Altoona Mirror, ARM, Trains Magazine, or you name it... you pick any single manner.... then ... as a taxpayer and as a one time resident. and as someone with a good bit of restoration knowledge... what should I and the rest of the world think is going on in Altoona...? answer : ( would seem like they are waiting for more state money please )... ( and although I think any money going to any rail preservation project is a good dollar spent, I would be against any money going to ARRM ) as until they can publicly go on record as to what the "master plan" is.. and be held somewhat accountable for the future ( I give up on their past )... however.. until measurable goals are set... and steps are put in place to see them accomplished.... please no more state, federal or local money.....

I am entitled to my opinion... (even if it might not be popular ) and I respect the opinions of others.. ( even if they differ from my own )


D.A. Levin

My final comment on the subject:



Mr. Levin, you sound very Mark McGuire-esque when you say repeadly, time and time again "it's not about the past," or "let's forget about the past." The neglect you speak of occurred in the past, and won't be addressed in a day, a week, or even a few months. Yet, even though you claim to not want to live in the past, you continually mention it, as if beating the "ARRM had bad management in the past" horse a death that long occurred on this board and others. Congratulations, you pointed out the problem.

What is the solution? Are you contending that there is no work being done at ARRM? What do you propose as the solution? You cannot un-ring a bell. The money and other problems that you allude to are long gone. I'm sure there are volunteers at ARRM working on probjects and trying to erase the past mistakes. I imagine they are too busy than to answer the inquiries of a muckraking private rail car owner.

Mr. Levin, have you ever offtered to buy a piece of equipment from ARRM? If so, what piece and when? What came of the offer?

For the record, I heard directly from a party directly connected with the Railroaders Memorial Museum in response to my somewhat-offhand query as to whether the new roundhouse would include work stalls.

No, the new roundhouse won't have a work/shop stall.

It'll have TWO work stalls.

Based on my own experience, I know that progress on equipment restoration speeds up terrifically when one doesn't have to spend two to three hours per "shift" setting up and then putting away such things as scaffolding, air lines, extension cords, and the like. The stalls are also covered (gad, working in the rain and mud is a rhymes-with-witch), probably have a solid floor (yay), electrical outlets (yay), a security system (it better), and maybe even a place where I can unroll a sleeping bag......

NOW I'll talk about spending a weekend or more helping out on their projects!

to the poster wilkinsd... ( I notice you for some reason do not care to put your name next to your remarks ) how interesting ?... anyway... since I have no clue who you are ( not that it matters ) .... however I feel obligated for some reason to answer your question.... and offer you a better understanding of life when you own historic equipment... ( which I assume you don't own )....

to answer your question "no I have never approached the ARRM about acquiring a piece of equipment"..... why you might ask ?..... well I will share that with you.... It is my opinion that too many groups no matter if that's NRHS chapters, museum's or private owners, over extend themselves in both dollars and available hours to commit to a project... often acquiring an object...and later coming to grips that first off there is no place to store it.... secondly.. a couple hundred thousand dollars does not exist to do the work...and what will we do with it .. when it is complete....?... I have not offered to purchase any objects out of ARRM, as I require my objects to have an indoor home ( which they do ), have sufficient money to operate ( which they do )... and a sufficient reserve for the unexpected ( which they do ).... Can you say the same for ARRM ?...( since you apparently know so much of their preservation policy perhaps you can share it with me ).. I suspect looking at the photographs that first off they have no indoor home, they have little preservation dollars, and if the first two requirements are not there.. lets forget about a sufficient reserve.... If I took the same outlook as ARRM, I would buy all the equipment, and leave it outside...giving the equipment little to no attention... ( and then you would likely applaud my efforts.. as that apparently is what you understand of preservation )....

So... when I find suitable indoor storage for more equipment, and have sufficient resources to properly restore another car..... I will, as I have in the past, consider dealing with xyz museum, if indeed that opportunity exists...however in the same sentence, those objects in Altoona, are falling apart,( under a non profit tax exempt umbrella ) seeing destruction daily from the weather, an occasional vandal and the like.... so in the same sentence.. and being that this is a preservation forum.... can you poster wilknsd, share the history of the preservation projects you have specifically funded, or directly assisted in... as perhaps you can lend some credibility to your preservation position ... as to me.... you appear to be a very loyal and blind follower lacking the basic understanding of difference between preservation ( the act or process of preserving, or keeping safe; the state of being preserved, or kept from injury, destruction, or decay; ) and neglect ( not to attend to with due care or attention ) I would suspect based upon your prior comments you do not understand the difference...

As to not make this turn into a arrow slinging, meaningless discussion, I suspect that opinions vary on the success of preservation at ARRM.....( which is a bit shocking ..given this is a preservation forum )... however perhaps its time to move on.... and I do wish the ARRM and the local NRHS chapter much success in the future...

D.A. Levin

Essentially, Mr. Levin's argument comes down to "Mr. Wilkins, you don't own a private car, so you aren't qualified to criticise me, or comment on what preservation means." Well, owning a private care or two isn't the same as managing a museum.

I find it ironic that the man who slings arrows doesn't want to turn it into an arrow slinging contest. By Mr. Levin's standards, I am a nobody, just coach class in his private car world, not having the financial wherewithall to own a private car, let alone restore one, or keep it indoors. I'm just a lowly volunteer, spending saturday after saturday with the needle gun, grinder, wood shop, and other tools of the trade. Since I do not march in lockstep and agree 100% with him, I'm just some mouthpiece for ARRM. Even though he proclaims to respect differing opinions, he wants to try to somewhow discredit me.

I've been involved in railway preservation for over fifteen years, been active in three museums and have served on a board of directors for over two years, until 2004. I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of railway preservation, from great museums to "preservation." I am not an expert, never claim to be, and am certainly in no condition to sling stones at other museums, as the problems facing railway preservation seem to be applicable to most museums. I was a volunteer at the Kentucky Railway Museum for over ten years, working on L&N 152. I am a volunteer with the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, where I've plied my trade helping work on, maintain, and restore pieces of the electric collection. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in tight confines such as fireboxes, tender tanks, and under passenger cars. I've expierenced the agony of seeking a piece of equipment I helped restore destoryed in minutes by vandals because the museum didn't have adequate secure storage. I've experienced the ecstacy of seeing something I've spent a major portion of my life on run, operate, and please visitors. I've cut myself, suffered countles bruises, abrasions, and other minor injuries. I've come home covered in grease and soot, spent nights helping sand polish, and paint. In other words, I'm just the lowly volunteer. I've felt the anger build in me as armchair historians, foamers, and know-it-alls trash work I've spent a long time working on. I was a reader of L&RP when it was in print. I donate my time, my labor, my seeat, my money when I can. My father doesn't own a railroad. I'm not famous, nor do I want to be. I do what I do because I love it. No rational being would put up with what we all do, including your insults, if we didn't love it.

While I have no formal museum training, I hold a M.A. in U.S. History and a J.D., and currently practice law. My username is taken from an old e-mail addres, I never sign my name, because I never felt personally challenged to do so.

David M. Wilkins

I think a common theme on this board is to only look at things when they are all bright and happy. When something goes wrong we kind of have to pretend like everything is fine and dandy. I see Platform Car as being concerned abut valuable and rare equipment being allowed to dissolve in the rain (while on the public dime)...and others sort of coming to the defense of the defenseless.

So do not skewer Platform Car for asking hard questions. He is concerned...and has has legitimate questions to ask. I would like to know the answer to his questions too. Who is the man/men behind the ARRM curtain? Are they in control? DO they have dreams or schemes?

First of all, this is a great thread about the dark side of railroad preservation…

While it is critical of one or more museums, the criticism are based on facts rather than “what ifs”, and are being used to illustrate our collective failures.

Its not about the personal attacks, but about choices about resources and where they are used… We haven’t questioned project management but could.

Keep it civil, but keep it coming…

Some of my thoughts on Altoona (based on discussions with someone once involved, and a site visit)

It is a great museum, with great displays, (museum) professionally developed, but with a concept and assumed operating budget that required higher visitation than Altoona can deliver to maintain and thrive. Add once easy grant money for projects that were likely more complicated that the organization was ready for… The museum has failed once and is now trying a so far unproven “event based” museum management structure…

Outside equipment is stored, acquired to support the original goal, but which has not been maintained, much less restored, nor interpreted, and is now in disgraceful condition, parked near the front door… not particularly welcoming. And not well addressed by a museum in “operational survival – non museum mode…”

Other museums have made some of the same mistakes… but thankfully not all of the same mistakes… B&O has an equipment garden in the parking lot… CSRM has let equipment decay. Most of us have too much not fully addressed… Most of our volunteer groups are from time to time overwhelmed by the scope of the project and don’t handle the issues well.. We have too much stuff and so some deteriorates… we make casual acquisition decisions. We acquire a car or loco for parts then let it take on collection status… Too few of us have mechanisms in place to get rid of stuff, either to a better home or just for scrap.

Keep the discussion alive… but recognize we have different views and criticism is not outlawed on the forum, but attacks are…