Steamtown Observer "
the person now making public pronouncements has developed a reputation both on the Internet and elsewhere that Dave (and I do as well) believe will keep other volunteers away in droves."

How can you say that really, you don't even know me. you judge me on what other people are telling you. They are telling lies, you and people are to doumb to understand that. I feel sorry for you. It's about time you start thinking for your self and not leave people think for you.

I'm tired of this, it's been going on for Four years. it about time it stops!
Len.

Dave "Fortunately, I'm blessed with a near photographic memory. I just needed to scroll back to mid Feb of 2006. Your post was removed, it involved the buy a tie program at the Bel-Del. Here is the only reference I could find."

Your memory isn't as good as you think it is. I transported 14 railroad ties to the Bel - Del for the Buy a Tie program that sarted in 2005. I transported them with my 18' tamdon axcel flat bed trailer. It was funny to see me at the Allentown train show with real real railroad ties, one guy made a joke and said" wow you bought them here" My friend Sal and I took them over.
I even took time one Sunday and repainted the whistle markers and mile post markers along the line, that was in 2005. before Pete Lerro had his photo freight special " Ghost Whistles and Freight"
I even traspoted my 1948 Farmall Cub for his freight special that year.
The bel - del is 2 1/2 hours drive and more when pulling a tractor on a trailer.
It's 2 1/2 hour to Steamtown for me too. But I'm willing to go , to help restore a historical locomotive. I only took over as leader because no one eles said they would and with steve going to Iraq I wanted him to know his efforts were not going to pot on this project.

Len.

You're right.

I guess I'm just "to doumb" like Steamtown Observer.

Dave

Ok, easy guys! Len stepped up to help me out. I know everyone is busy with things me too! I'm working a .ppt this weekend for Len and Steamtown so we are all on the same sheet of music.
Dave, you know the shop is more than capable of removing that oil tank. Just need it under an over head crane. As far as the shop equip usage you have to show the foreman you know what you are doing, safety, checks and such, and you can use it. Or if one of the guys aren't busy they will do it for you.
I know in the past we really only hunted down parts but like Dave said we have what we have now it's FUN TIME!!!!!! Just the little we have done on the front pilot and brakes is making folks talk. There is plenty to do. I should have the list posted by Monday.
Please let's focus on 565 and not issues from the past. Thanks.

Steve

Gentlemen,

I was not going to reenter this discussion due to the earlier firestorm, however for the good of the order we need to set a few things straight right now.

First - A review of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's court records at both the Magisterial District and the Court of Common Pleas levels shows no, I say again, no indication of what most of us would consider a police record for Brother Shaner. There are two traffic tickets and a summons for hunting without securing a license. This is not a criminal record in any way, shape, or form. He also had a civil problem with the Federal Communications Commission some years back but that has been settled and again is not a police or criminal record. I too have seen the intimations from a phantom poster some years back and took the trouble to check. There is no criminal record, so therefor that story should stop right here, right now.

Second – I have grumbled here and elsewhere at some length about persons who complain about a particular restoration project (complaining being quite distinct from honest criticism) and refuse to either write a cheque or get their hands dirty. Brother Shaner has at least shown a willingness to attempt the work in Steve Boone's place and while he may have quite a bit to learn (as did I years ago) about what is actually involved, he has at least taken it upon himself to keep the project moving. We should at least try not to make the job any harder than it is.

Brother Mitchell's comments about how to go about the transition were right on the mark. Certified operators, proper safety orientation (quite a bit more nowadays than just steel toes), a punch list of specific tasks and goals, broken down into manageable pieces, prioritized and in an order which allows the gang working on the engine to make the most of their time. I would go a step further and suggest listening very carefully to the people who have experience with the engineering and maintenance of steam engines and all most certainly know what they are talking about. Remember that Brother Boone's real value to the project is not his encyclopedic knowledge of steam locomotive design but the long time NCO's ability to manage time and people so that things actually happen.

The video was of value to me as I have not seen the engine since it left Ringoes. The primary question in my mind (and this goes back to my last point) is the cause of the sag. Lead trucks are usually intended to guide the engine around curves. They are not usually designed to be weight bearing. This engine appears to have its center of gravity pretty well lined up with the center driver. I am wondering if the "sag" toward the front is a problem in the driver springs and spring hangers, not the absence of the lead truck.

Remember that, while the fate of western civilization may well not hinge on what happens to DL&W 565, what is important here is the proper cosmetic restoration of the engine. The people are merely the supporting cast.

GME

Pony trucks are generally equalized back to the front drivers and as such do bear weight - but not quite as much as the drivers. Given they are levered out in front of the mass of the boiler, it is possible that once reinstalled and properly set up, there may not be a sag. I'm assuming the frame has been checked for straight and some rough sort of tram.

dave

We actually have to go back into the design history of that class of engine to be certain about the weight distribution. Freight engines tended to be designed for maximum tractive effort rather than speed. A six or eight coupled freight engine would be designed to maximize the weight on the drivers and ideally with an equalized pony truck the transfer would sufficient to keep the pony truck on the rail so that it could accomplish its purpose but not reduce the weight on the drivers anymore than absolutely necessary. There are many instances of 2-6-0 and 2-8-0s demoted to yard engines (where speed was not an issue) with the lead truck removed and the pilot beam shortened.

It seems from the outdoor pictures at Steamtown to be well balanced without the truck. Anybody with more specific knowledge of the design origins is welcome to enlighten me but for now my feeling is that this engine's design is essentially an 0-6-0 with a pony truck. In the spirit of "doing it right" within the constraint of a net negative budget I would be inclined to deal with the driver springing or to at least carefully record what I found before I put the pony truck on. That way if the pony truck does not correct the sag, or for that matter there are any other suspension issues, I would not be back to square one.

GME

Good morning all,

The front drive wheels spring are missing. We hope we can find them if not we will have a pair made new.

I'll give you more of a report when I get back tonight, as I'm going up to Steamtown today. There is a man meeting me from the Danbury railway Museum, NY. He contacted me through Railroad.net .

Take care & God Bless

Len.

Well I've done things in my past that I'm not proud of, but fortunately I've been allowed to learn from those mistakes and redeem myself. Everyone should be given that opportunity, including Brother Shaner.

Lets judge him on his actions going forward. Those who decided to turn this thread into a character assassination may have just dealt a great blow to the future success of the 565 project. How is that promoting preservation? Would you feel happy if your posts turned enough people away so that the project failed?

Railfans/rail preservationists are a vindictive bunch, much more so than I've found in other aspects of industrial history/preservation and metalworking.

The reason for the sag is two+ fold. The springs and related equalizing hangers and bars are missing, and, the front driver journal boxes are not in place. There are only blocks of wood where the boxes are supposed to be. Another contributor is that the front pedestal binders are not applied. This is noticeably contributing to the front end drop as the toes are pinched in. The fact that the waste sheets are torch cut loose doesn't help matters to make the frame structure more ridged.

Bruce

Seems like a good plan if you are trying to kink the frame. It was me, I'd have had jacks under the saddle first thing and made some sort of temporary binder to hold the jaws at the right opening. Just saying.........I recall the Strasburg guys solving kinks in a set of new flame cut frames using the surgical application of heat at specific locations - maybe they can advise.

dave

Dave that frame has been like that for 30 years. No journals installed. So when we jack her we have to do it very carefully. I'm going to treat it like when I have to install a stress panel on an aircraft. We will slowly jack her with the steel plates, that go under the journals, kind of lined up, then slowly raise her until the bolt holes line up. We will have to get the holes to align then go from there. We may be able to tell if the journal slots are kinked down by just measuring top and bottom for a difference.

The front driver is only resting on 4X4 blocks between the frame and the axle. So she is really nose down.

Steve.

Hi all,
Well I 'm back. I had a great time up at Steamtown today. we got a few things done . Dan the man that came down from New York was a huge help! He worked on the Left leg iron on the back of the tender and took it off. it needs to be fixed , through the years it got bent back some so , He took it off and some time soon it will get back to shape. the way the photos shows it should be. We saw the right one needs to be fixed too. So the next time that one will be removed also. I was working on sanding off rust and old paint up front on the locomotive where the cross heads go. then I primered the areas with light gray paint. that's the only color I could find. so it wouldn't rust up. I even touch up the gloss black on the piston housing sheet metal it looks better for now.
Here is a picture of it.
I'm planning a work day in July. I had a few replies for the date of the Sunday July 19th. so I'm hoping there will be more to show up to help.

I would like to get the tender over the the main loco shop to have the oil tank remove and start to restore that. And then worrie about 565 latter. when we have all the parts to put the lead truck back on.

The tender is will be a little easier then working with the loco. so it should get restore faster. I think once the tender is looking like it's old self, I feel more people will come out because they'll see we are not fooling around. I'll have a video up on youtube soon of the updates on this project.

Take care all.
Len.

565 front view looking back.

A note to Bruce. could you please put my water bottle in the cab. I for got it. it's on the running board.

Thanks.
Len.

I'd like the swing this thread away from some of the personality bashing and bring it back to the 565. I had an idea while driving between jobs yesterday that I'd like to share.

From what I have read, there are a lot of parts missing from 565; springs and spring rigging, equalizers, journals, pedestal binders, ashpan, grates, steps, etc., etc. I'm sure as time goes on, the list of missing parts will grow.

What no one has mentioned, or at least seems to forget, is that 565 is really the only "hometown" engine in Scranton. As such, on a local basis, it may be the most historically significant item in the Steamtown collection.

What I would like to propose is a major fund-raising effort to really get this job done right. In saying that, I am NOT in the least downplaying the work done by Steve and Len, but pointing out that these projects cost cubic yards of money. Missing parts will have to be made or purchased, none of which will be cheap. (Just as an aside, I ran tubing from MR to a bell valve and on to the the bell on an Alco diesel yesterday; $29 in fittings alone, and we already had the tubing!)

Historically the Lackawanna had ties to the iron and coal industries. While the steel (iron) industry is not doing too well in the US right now, the energy companies have been posting record profits! Why not seek out some major financial assistance from "Big Oil" (who also own many of the coal companies), to get these parts made, and to provide some of the specialized skills needed to make that engine a real showpiece. The Scranton, coal/energy tie-in should be obvious.

Again, I'm not bashing Len. I'm merely suggesting that the project get some major funding and where needed some professional help. Len and his crew can continue to identify and locate parts, make lists of what is missing, what needs to be done, and keep doing what they can to prevent the engine from getting any worse. The tank removal and replacing the front tender beam are good examples. And as the late Don Ball pointed out, back in Steamtown's Vermont days, paint is a cheap industrial preservative.

Right now, I'm thinking of a good cosmetic restoration. Returning 565 to operating condition, as I understand the new rules, would require a new boiler, and loss of much of the engine's historic fabric. I'm not sure the NPS would go for that option (Of course, if the running gear gets done right, the boiler would be the next logical step. Memories of the 148- Sorry-)

I have been following 565 for maybe 45 years now. As a child, I saw it under tarps in Chester and later in High Bridge and Flemington. As an early BR&W volunteer, I saw it on display at Ringoes. I later saw the engine all apart at New Hope, while the original Adirondack was getting started, and then shoved into the weeds OFF the end of track when the Adirondack project fizzled. I'm glad to see that the engine is at last getting the attention and respect that hasn't had over the last few decades.

E. D. Moxley
Amsterdam Leasing