Not a volunteer organization? I don't think that's accurate. Let me pop on my own iconoclast hat for a moment.

Those organizations he mentioned (along with VMT, CSRM and others) have issues with government money. It's dangerous stuff.

I mean, the government funding always dries up. But while it's still there, it tends to have one or more longer-lasting effects...
... the funding bred an internal bureaucracy which makes its own survival first priority in hard times, stripping resources from core services... like, you know... paint.
... the professionals decided volunteers were too annoying and unreliable to work with.
... the volunteers stopped seeing a reason to keep working for free while others were paid.
... everyone decided this was a government instutition not a nonprofit.
... potential volunteers see opportunities as the government's problem.

Here we are back to "not a volunteer organization". You name Steamtown but there's Len and afboone rallying the troops.

Restoration should be done by volunteers. It's what volunteers prefer to do, and it's a job best done as a labor of love. A well-heeled museum isn't wrong to leave restoration work to volunteers. Most should probably do a better job recruiting and keeping them, but that's another rant...

For forty years two WV Northern locomotives sat rusting away on an abandoned siding in PA. Those locos are now back in WV being restored for eventual operation. Would it have been nice if they did not need to wait for 40 years? Yes, but the time was not right.
Would Mr. Disney get rid of something that was core to his mission, but which he did not have the time, money or need for at the present? No, he would have placed in the back lot out of sight until he was ready to work on it. Unforetunately, we do not have back lots at most museums, where we can hide unrestored equipment from the public's eyes.
To me the more important question is what is the attitude of the members of the museum towards their equipment. Do they only want to restore the locomotives and equipment that will allow them to run a passenger train? If so, they should get rid of all the equipment that does not fit that goal. Most of their "non-revenue" equipment could then go to organizations which would appreciate it. This gets us back to one of the key points put forth by the Association of RR Museums (ARM), what is the mission of your museum? If it is to represent the steam era, why do you have a fleet of perfectly restored diesels? If it is to display railroading in Georgia, why do you have those railroad pieces from Montana? There may be good answers, but too often we have just collected/saved whatever we could get and then never thought about where it really belongs.

I work with many museums on a regular basis and although many of them are a pleasure to work with there are a few (such as Altoona) who have equipment that are one of a kind and deserve to be preserved. So many non-profit organizations make their daily decisions based on personal preferences instead of what's best for the organization. Even though most museums are a non profit volunteer organization they really need to make sound business decisions since they have revenue to generate and bills to pay. But this is seldom the case, I originally got into the railroad business via a NRHS chapter. As a kid this organization had 27 passenger cars and only 3 of them ran. For years I kept telling the board lets sell the cars to better homes and concentrate on a few and have them in great shape. Well as you can guess the response was "Oh we are going to fix that car some day". One of those cars was a 1898 wood business car. For the last 30 years they have not even been able to put a tarp over it and now it is beyond hope. I'm a big supporter of selling it off or giving it to someone who will take care of it. There is no excuse for letting a piece of equipment sit on your property and rot! Granted there were 100's of baggage cars and coaches built and I know you can't save them all! But what about those rare gems like the two cars at Altoona? Come on guys how much is a tarp? The last time I was there the observation car had broken windows with shards of plate glass just hanging out of the frame waiting to fall on the head of a visitor as he/she walks by the car. As some one who has owned many Pullman built cars I can tell you the windows are the main source of water getting into the car body and rotting out side sills, side sheets, etc. If you don't want to put a tarp on the car then spend a Saturday with a caulking gun and put some good caulking around the window where the aluminum sash meets the rubber. The rubber dry rots and the sash will not keep a water tight seal and in comes the water. I remember seeing those two cars when they were in Phillipsburg years ago and they were not perfect but they were water tight and not rotten. It really upsets me to see two gems falling apart to due pure and simple neglect and stupidity. So BRAVO Mr. Levin for speaking up, I wish more people in non profits and the industry would do the same. "IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT, GET RID OF IT"

So...ARRM has left the rare passenger cars to rot...but! they scrapped the derrick boom and painted (incorrectly) an REA express boxcar.

I am sure they intend to "fix up" the passenger cars one day but by the time they get to them there will not be anything left to fix up.

Rust in Peace.

T7

Ummmmmmmmmmmm..............

Where did you see/hear that they scrapped the crane?

You are right...better said "they did scrape the crane"...as in they took tools and removed the old paint and rust.

Note to self: If in doubt, look in the dictionary.

T7

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe a number of pieces in the museum yard belong to the the Horseshoe Curve chapter of the NRHS including a B60 ( which is in good shape ), the Duquense business car 7511 ( which is in fair to poor shape ), the REA boxcar, and the Union League Club (a 8 Section, Buffet, Sun Room, heavyweight Built by Pullman Standard in August & September of 1929, under Plan 3989, Lot 6274 ) .. It is also I believe my understanding that I believe the Union League Club and the Duqiuense once belonged to the ARRM, however were donated to the NRHS chapter. The NRHS chapter, has made a good attempt over the years to at least act as a responsible owner to this equipment, making efforts on the Duquense to move it to Union Tank Car in Altoona for blasting and storage ( it later returned to the museum yard in primer ) ...the Union League Club was at least boarded up and not left wide open anymore, and the REA car, ( which I believe was discussed before ) was repainted with the assistance of the company that occupies the old Berwind White Company property in Hollidaysburg PA ( it might have been Millennium Rail ) .. however I am not sure if that is their name....as it was mentioned, although the car looks great, I believe the lettering is incorrect, however I suspect if the company donated the work, then perhaps one can't be too critical... It should be noted that both the Duquense and the Union League Club were both in M&W service for many years, so neither car had a "charmed" life after retirement...

ARRM is not alone in the questionable collection practices and preservation policies that seem to blight plenty locations throughout the country.. however in my opinion some are outright failures ( such as the management of the Santa Fe collection at the California State Railroad Museum ) and perhaps is much different than a line of derelict non restored equipment at the Spencer shops which is not part of the visitor experience... some are failures...( such as the Santa Fe collection ) while others take not restored, visually poor equipment and get them out of the vision of the paying customer... perhaps awaiting a better fate to either be donated, or money found someday for a restoration... however even though a place like CSRM has failed to take the unique Santa Fe collection and management it ( preserve it, retain it as a collection, and display it )...the paying visitor does not see it... they see a first class museum in a beautiful display building, allowing the visitor to get the experience of California railroad history through equipment displays, artifact displays and a movie that brings the history of California railroading right to you.... imagine for one moment CSRM with all the stuff that was left out rotting by the SP shops building, laying around the replica depot building ...? last time I was at CSRM a little while back, everything by the museum ( to be seen by the visitor ) was indoors that was owned by the state, with the exception of a UP caboose, an ex SP tank car, and an ex MP/ UP business car.. however those three items were in good condition... certainly not something that takes away from the visitor experience.... CSRM does a very good job ( in my opinion ) having the customer walk away with a positive experience... while at the same time failing at the management of the Santa Fe collection...

Places like Altoona, are also judged on the same criteria... Altoona does a nice job with its redefined mission of being a "railroaders memorial museum" utilizing the master mechanics building to complete that mission.... however it does a poor job utilizing the equipment to back up this mission... In my eyes, two or three finely restored pieces in the yard, would likely be a better message than 15 pieces that show little to no effort to preserve.... ARRM would certainly look and be perceived a lot better with likely less on the property, allowing those selected pieces to see immediate attention.... sorta the less is more theory..

Do I think it will happen.... likely no... as Mincy21 stated very well the reasons why... however, if we look real hard here, and leave the personal feelings out of this, there certainly should be lessons learned.. unfortunately these lessons came at the expense of some very unique and one of a kind pieces of equipment..

Dean Levin

If you look at the general age of the members belonging to NRHS chapters and most museums the general age of the members is 60+. It seems like most organizations have lost their desire to get younger members and eventually (as is the case now) a kid and their parents will look at a car like the ones in Altoona and not even know what the heck it was or did. A few museums have a great presentation of the equipment so people understand it's purpose but 95% of them don't. Perhaps some of the museums should start getting boy scouts and similar youth groups involved in restoring equipment or otherwise in 20 years no one on this board will even know what a 4-4-2 Pullman was!

Okay, I'm losing my cool here. (well, blame the weather, too.)

In the vast majority of times I hear someone kvetching about ANY "loaded" subject--health care, immigration, abortion, global warming, rusty Reading T1, Amtrak funding, etc.--I only have to state four words to bring the so-called discussion to an end:

"Propose a viable alternative."

The critical word is "viable."

Dean Levin (who, I should probably remind any newcomers to the forum, is NOT related to the Levins of PRR 120/E8's fame) apparently seems to be steering the discussion to the prospect of several passenger cars leaving the RRersMM for other pastures.

Fine and dandy. Find me someone willing to buy, invest in, or front the restoration costs of said pieces. Assuming the Museum CAN sell off one or more of these cars, who's standing by ready to buy, and for what ends? I think the luxury train market is somewhat saturated these days (the Grand Canyon RR is storing the entire Arcadian trainset, it seems), and the cars in question don't seem to have much use for your typical tourist train behind ol' no. 38, 475, or 3254.........

I still don't have a freakin' clue how the deal for the Nicholas Firestone in Williamsport was engineered. I'm positive the railfans that run the Lycoming Valley RR (and the rest of the "Robey Empire") had a LOT to do with it. If we can do something similar five or six more times, go for it. But will we be equally aghast at the sight of a PRR obs turned into a "luxury suite" at the Red Caboose Motel or a trackside B&B along the Middle Division?

I think Mr. Mitchell is putting the cart before the horse. The first step is to get these museums to realize that they can not fix a car and to actually decide to do the right thing and sell or donate it. THEN you find the person who can do it and has the desire. Sooooo many museums have the mentality of not wanting to get rid of something because it is unique or some of the board members rode on the car in Penn Central days when the group first got it. There are people out there who have the passion, desire & ability to take care of an item but first you have to pry it from the hands of the narrow minded individuals who think it looks better rotting away! So don't loose your cool over individuals who have the nerve to voice their opinion on the injustice of neglect, loose your cool on the people who are causing the injustice!

> "Propose a viable alternative."

"Cocoon" the car / locomotive / whatever until you get the time, money and manpower for a restoration.

That white plastic "shrink wrap" stuff is apparently reasonable, as I see all kinds of boats being covered with it when they're transported. It would certainly do a good job of keeping the weather out. Yes, I know, it might trap some moisture, but compare that to having the car out in the weather and the windows leaking.

It also might discourage vandals, as they can't see the windows etc, so there's not as much fun in breaking them. Obviously, it won't stop thieves who want to get scrap metal etc from the car, as it's easy to cut.

It also sends a message that the owners care about protecting the artifact, and it generally looks nicer than a graffiiti covered hulk with broken windows.

"Injustice"? That's a mighty strong word you're bandying about there.

This language seems to imply that the Altoona museum snatched various particular cars away from other preservationists who were jockeying to acquire said cars for their own uses. As far as I can tell, if these pieces weren't in the control of the Museum, they would probably be rotting elsewhere, or more likely scrapped by now. About the only car I see in that collection that even comes close to the possible "opportunity lost" analogy would be the Mountain View--which, as you may recall, was GIVEN to the Museum with the help and cooperation of another pair of Levins. (There was also a supposed attempted lease of 1361 by some of the folks that had a hand in restoration in the 1980s, but that's another topic.)

Can you demonstrate that anyone has approached the Museum with the intent of acquiring a piece or two from their collection for potential restoration or operation elsewhere, aside from the already-mentioned example of the Firestone car in Williamsport? I don't have enough information about the Williamsport project to pass judgment, but it appears that said example demonstrably proves that you're wrong--they apparently WILL listen to appropriate offers from elsewhere AND let go of an artifact in the "right" circumstances.

I will point out that a museum DOES reserve the right to reject such overtures if they feel that said overtures are not in the best interest of the artifact and institution--and, indeed, if the party making the offer is reasonably judged to be insufficiently experienced, qualified, and/or financed, then it has an obligation to reject such offers.

Urm. Forgive me if I'm "starting something here" ... but I think there's basically something wrong with the notion of singling out one museum in this regard. I mean, pretty much *all* museums have this problem to one degree or another. Even the best.

Now, to address a few points in the thread... Dean feels seeing unrestored equipment injures the visitor experience. Not quite, I say. First, in small doses, people really like it. This unit is not part of the WRM collection, it's an eyesore to me. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2922331386/ But it also happens to be one of the most photographed units in the collection. I've thought of "throwing a coat of paint on it" just for dignity's sake, but really- that would ruin it for people.

Second, weathered equipment is part of our story. WRM's Barn 3 tours will stop to interpret the PFE reefer. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2919042879/ The story isn't expanding the agricultural market of the Central Valley, oh no. This story is a tragedy: how this unit was lovingly restored by PFE shop forces, and then left outside for lack of covered storage. And thus, why these units must come indoors or be lost.

I agree with Mincy21 that we should help motivate museums to care for it or deaccession it. Of course this idea would result in mass scrappings, as every museum has the same problem, and horse-trading the units would be a net-lose for everyone except for Silk Road Moving. But we can motivate museums. Keep volunteering, but get on the Board and drive those changes. As for donations - damn straight, demand top collection management, and generally, that means carbarns, built on your own land next to your own railroad. In order of Railroad-Land-Barns. That's all I will support.

Bob suggests shrinkwrapping. WRM's experience is they don't do the greatest job of protection. It works on boats, because the bottom is already watertight. It's helpful in sunny areas because it stops the UV. But I lifted the tarp off a speeder that had been lovingly restored 10 years prior, and it looked like it had been 7 years outside. It looks like the wind and humidity just cut right through it.

Even Seashore-style open carbarns don't really do a good job. BAERA's open Barn 1 is really rough on traction motor cars, even though we don't have snow and are very dry most of the year.

Here is a positive story: A NRHS chapter in Tennessee had a steamer that was displayed in a park...it was in terrible shape. A local railroad asked if they could restore the locomotive and operate it. The NRHS was mad as hornets for this simple request. They let any and all know that the little railroad was bad and evil. Time passed by...and lots of bad things happened to the little choo choo alone in the park. People stole parts from it...the cab windows rotted off...rust streaked the once pretty boiler. It was a sad little choo choo.

Then one day the same railroad's owner came back to the same NRHS chapter and asked again if he could take the steamer to restore. Well...there was a lot of soul searching, a lot of talking...and finally the NRHS chapter agreed to let the choo choo go for restoration.

So now as we speak the steamer is sitting in the railroads shops being restored and will one day hoot and toot again. This story should be told far and wide. More NRHS chapters should learn about the good things that have happened. It could be a model for the future of choo choo preservation.

Toot-toot!!!

T7

thank you termite7, mincy21,and robertmacdowell and others for the interesting informative posts ( and the moderators for allowing this subject matter to continue ) ...In robertmacdowell post, it makes an interesting point specifically about the Pacific Fruit Express car... which made an interesting display in its weathered look. I can certainly appreciate seeing this wooden reefer on display, not looking new... however the one thing that is noticeable is that the car sits indoors, with virtually no real risk or fear of being lost... I take from this that WRM saw the value of this car, and was able to find a way to see to it.. that it found a way and home indoors.. Therefore for the most part, the weathering of this car has stopped, and it can indeed tell a story... both of its service life, and perhaps a bit of a compelling second story of life after it was restored and donated.... the car looks more "weathered" than rotting... In regard to the example of termite7, the engine that was removed from the park in Tennessee is a prime example of how cooperation among the non profit sector and private sector can succeed in this small industry. The corporation / individual who took the engine, has the resources and a prior history of success, so eventually all the parties came to a mutually agreeable solution and today it has a very high likely of again steaming.

However if we use robertmacdowell example of the reefer for a moment, once again the value of this object was determined and it sits indoors in a fine looking building. The only friendly difference I see is there are certain pieces in the museum yard at ARRM ( and many other places ) that suffer benign neglect... ( A policy or attitude of ignoring a situation instead of assuming responsibility for managing or improving it. ) ...please re-read this...its "IGNORING A SITUATION"...now WRM did not ignore the wooden boxcar, and I thank robertmacdowell for clarifying that an object does not need to look "new" for it to have a place on display and accessible to a museum paying guest. WRM also has a sign next to the car, describing what it is, what happened to it, and that plans are to restore the car. ( in addition every car at WRM does not look about the same ) ...

Mr. Mitchell ( who I believe should absolutely check some facts on a few issues before writing them on this forum ) asked for alternatives.... Poster Bobharbison offered the immediate and perhaps most easy way to immediately address an issue by "Cocooning" a car via shrink wrap or suitable project. I thank poster Bobharbison for offering this "alternative" for Mr. Mitchell and the rest of the readers... It might just be, that a few of us on this forum can agree that as Bobharbison wrote "It also sends a message that the owners care about protecting the artifact, and it generally looks nicer than a graffiiti covered hulk with broken windows"... Note the part about "sends a message we care"...as opposed to how I started this specific posting about "benign neglect and ignoring a situation"... For Mr. Mitchell's sake, here are a few other alternatives.

1. Immediately remove the cars on the property that are in obvious shape to be dangerous or distract the visitor from a positive experience. Not per say sell off the equipment, however store them elsewhere ( perhaps some ideas are ) .. South Altoona Foundry ( which has indoor track space ), Altoona Pipe and Steel ( a friendly neighbor who might have a space for 2-3 cars ), Hollidaysburg car shops ( now empty and being redeveloped ), or perhaps Norfolk Southern could spare room in perhaps the building the K4 was stored for some time, etc etc. Once cars are removed consider options 2.3.4 or perhaps just 5.

2. Address the aesthetic and structural problems with the equipment and actually fix the cars.( perplexing thought ? ) Replace the rotting steel, broken windows, missing parts, and return the object into a viable museum display. Consult with experts in the industry who have done this type of work, subcontract it out if it is best, and do something.

3. ( connected to 2 ) fund raise for the future or current preservation of an object. Go out in the community and raise awareness of a specific piece of equipment, perhaps get some corporate sponsorship, and the like. Perhaps utilize the kind efforts of Mr. Wick Moorman from NS ( who kindly offered to donate over a million dollars to VMT ( Virginia Museum of Transport ) ) if it could be matched, or any other local company from Sheetz, to Boyer Candy Company. With this money, allocated specifically to an object, glazing could be purchased, paint etc etc.

4. Offer objects to other historical organizations or individuals who could likely give an object a better home. Sales of such object would again allow some objects to get the benefit of this money taken in from such a plan. Even though some of these objects were indeed "purchased" by the museum, perhaps its time to accept that the resources, manpower and mission are not what they once were when these objects were purchased.

5. Cocoon the cars as Bobharbison indicated to stop the weather and give a better impression. .This is certainly done at many museum's including the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.

6 Learn something from the years of neglect not to allow future objects to suffer the same outcome as the present objects... so we are not talking about the rotten side sheets and broken windows on the Mountain View in 10 years.

However it is my thought that in some cases multiple efforts as indicated above should take place.. with item #3 and #6 being critical in all cases.

To Mr. Mitchell ( first off keep your cool ) , no one here is Kvetching, it is intended to be a discussion, one that is interesting and educational offers the varying opinions of members who have had or are having similar experiences, and certainly this is not a "loaded subject".. The above options are all viable alternatives.. and as you said the critical word is "viable" Secondly, again I think you should check your facts before you post them on this subject, and finally, I am certainly not steering this discussion with the prospect of several passenger cars leaving ARRM for other pastures, if I am doing anything, I am making some people who may not be aware of the condition of these objects aware, with perhaps the hope that someday, someday in my lifetime, the benign neglect comes to an end in time to see the equipment properly preserved in a setting it is deserves.

Dean Levin