Although sometimes known to be a lightning rod I have to say it seemed like the comments made by Ross was not really a flame. All in all there seemed to be some good discussion about the K4. Recent photos of any steamer are always a good thing. There is a lot to be learned by failures and the K4 project probably has more lessons to offer than will ever be learned. Len and Ross both have both drawn criticisms for postings online but they are both passionate and sometimes our passion gets the best of us. I thank them both for their efforts and remind everyone they are both doers.

I'd agree that it's important to stay on subject and avoid personal comments. I grew a thick skin many years ago starting when a very agitated foamer got in my face in Buffalo on the way west with the Golden Spike Cenntennial Limited and berrated me for having the nerve to put blue paint on the 759. He shouted that "the NKP NEVER!!! painted their engines blue!!!". The fact that we took her out of a deadline,restored her to service and where running a transcontinental steam trip to draw national attention to the most important anniversay in American railroad history was besides the point. To this looney all that mattered was the color of the paint. I guess in his mind better she be dead and rusting away than painted blue???

It takes all kinds and that's life!!

I would agree that with the State of Pa. basically insolvent there's ZERO chance of getting funds for the 1361. Therefore, there's a very high probability that she'll sit where she is for a very long time??

I would hope for S'towns sake they clean up the signage, but the truth is that nearly all folks who see it won't know what it means anyway.

Only us serious foamites!!!

Looking forward to spending 3 days at Trainfestival2009. Treated myself to obs. car tickets behind all 3 of the big girls and hope to see many of you there!!!

Best regards, Ross Rowland

Isn't the RRMPA planning to move the 1361 into their new roundhouse at Altoona? Since Altoona was the site of the PRR's main shops where thousands of steam locomotives were ripped apart and rebuilt (not to mentioned built from the ground up), wouldn't the perfect opportunity present itself to make the 1361 a living exhibit of PRR locomotive repair practices?

The goal should be to slowly work on the 1361 in the new roundhouse, and in so doing it would become an ever changing extremely realistic exhibit about the PRR's locomotive shops. With the exception of the curve Altoona's other claim to fame was the shops, and since a visitor cannot tour the shops recreating the shop in a small scale for the restoration of one locomotive would certainly contribute to the museum's mission. An opportunity exists for doing public demonstrations of staybolt installation or riveting or appliance rebuilding etc. That certainly is better than seeing pictures of it being done in the museum.

The only question is if the museum's new director has the will to get it done.

I don't see anything wrong at all with displaying locomotives that are taken apart. I think many visitors might find that much more interesting that a static display of equipment that is perfectly restored.

PC

Although Ross and I frequently dissagree about some things, he didn't deserve the attack for posting his correction on the K4. I think that was a little over the line...

Back to the K4. It is tucked away in the corner of the roundhouse, you can see it from the side, from a distance, but the sign and chalked comments would only be viewable if you went into a non-public area. From what I recall, I don't even think the tours go around that way. I wouldn't be suprised if the sign has already dissapeared.

Personally, lost tax dollars notwithstanding, I got a chuckle out of it.

Dave

I've got a little problem with the post a few days ago that used the phrase "hulk of an engine" three times in the same sentence. It may apply to two of the three, at least in the near future and in the current economy, but not to the 614. With roller bearings, 26 air, cab signal, built in 1948 or so, and having operated at track speed over NJ Transit not so terribly long ago, 614 is NOT a hulk. It may need some work, but that locomotive is several orders of magnitude away from being just another "hulk".

Me thinks that Mr. SS makes an excellent suggestion. Make her reassembly a WIP display in the new R'house in Altoona.

Let's hope that the funds for the building and to move her back to Altoona made it out of Harrisburg and into the ARRMM's bank a/c before the current insolvency hit the State. If not, I'd guess they'll be waiting a VERY long time before they see it!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

I stand by my hulk nomenclature. Where I work, a locomotive is made for one thing and one thing only - to move things. I don;t care if its the 614, or one of the stored -8s we have sitting in one of our yards - if it's laying cold and dead, it's a hulk. In the same sense we have GP38s with rollers, cab signals, even LSL, that operated at track speed 6 years ago, They are sitting drained behind the shops. Those too, are hulks.

Agree or not, that is my opinion.

I for one don’t agree, and can explain why.

Defining any not operating preserved engine as a hulk is a narrow view.

A locomotive, owned by a railroad is there to pull trains, if it is not capable of pulling trains a railroader may deem it a “hulk”.

But this is not a board to discuss railroading. It is a board to discuss railroad preservation. When a locomotive, or other object enters the world of preservation its primarily purpose is not to pull trains (or what ever it did before.) Its primary purpose is to educate, illustrate, and demonstrate a time in history, or a technology.

A preserved locomotive may pull trains as part of that educational mission. But it may sit on display and awe with its size. It may be presented as a static display preserved for possible future operation.

So Steve and Len are not preserving a hulk, they are preserving a museum locomotive. Decisions will not be made based on the number of cars it will pull, but on what guests will learn when visiting and viewing the exhibit. It would be nice to see the K4 run, but its not strictly necessary for its preservation. Showing it in pieces as a work in process, showing what work is required to maintain a steam locomotive might be a better display for Altoona.

A business person could argue we don’t have enough places to run all of the preserved steam locomotives, or money to maintain them… So some should be preserved cold, alternately we could just scrap all the “hulks”.

Well, by those criteria, 614 is definitely a hulk. Rusting under a tarp isn't educating, illustrating, or demonstrating anything except entropy.

Although we've been through this drill before it appears that a refresher course is in order.

The reason we haven't made the huge investment ( $ 500,000-750,000) needed to give the 614 its FRA workup is that in todays railroad reality there's no way she could even come close to earning even the interest on that money.

The class 1's until the recession hit had real capacity problems ( more biz. then they could handle), the Class 1 lawyers insist on so much liability insurance that all the ticket revenues go to pay the insurance bill and the regionals ( i.e. the R&N etc.) operate in areas without nearly enough population base to support a big engine.

Therefore, she'll stay stored until/unless an opportunity presents itself wherein she can lead a useful life.

We do a thorough mechanical going over of her twice yearly and make sure that all her vital parts are kept well lubricate and preserved. The shrink wrap has proven itself to be FAR superior to tarping and I highly recommend it.

Ross Rowland

Mr. Hess,

I mean no disrespect to any of the above engines. Medical students learn from cadavers. Those cadavers are a wealth of information, but in the end, they still are dead bodies. The purpose of a locomotive is to move cars. If it can't move cars, then its purpose is gone. Yes, it can be used as an educational tool, and should be. But it, in reality, is still a hulk, or shell, of itself. It doesn't matter who owns the engine, unless it was purposely built for display, it was made to move freight or peoples.

Don't get me wrong, I love history and preservation. But when you see these engines doing what they were made to do - it becomes a shame to see them rusting away in a museum. But it still beats being made into razor blades.

That's my opinion.

(I just spent the night shifting cars with a pair of CR sd40-2s and an old Reading Gp40-2. The old girls still got it)

By the definitions being presented in this discussion it is beginning to look like everything that railroad equipment maintenance staff do with locomotives would be viewed by some folks as having no value or interest because the equipment is not out there on the main line running for the railfans to take pictures of. Curiously this closely parallels comments I have gotten over the years from some railfans, who could not care less about what goes on in a railroad shop. Railfans with that attitude usually don't care what goes on in a preservation organization either.

Yet the equipment maintenance activities on the railroads are essential, much of what they do is mandated by federal regulations, and the activity provides employment for thousands of people. I thought that part of the purpose of non-profit rail preservation organizations was an educational mission, and how a locomotive is disassembled, overhauled, and rebuilt should be comfortably within the scope of that mission. PRR 1361 in its present state provides an opportunity to educate the public about locomotive maintenance, if anybody wants to take advantage of that opportunity. Temporary use of it in that way might also provide a much higher visibility means of soliciting donations, and get it closer to the day when railfans can again take pictures of it in operation.

PC

There's a difference between a locomotive in for its 90 day and a locomotive sitting drained and capped behind the back 40. Sure, if you are going to work on the engine, then by all means showcase it.

But to have some engine sitting dead for the past 15 years and try to sue it as an example of how a locomotive shop works isn't the best, IMO. I sure hope it wouldn't take a shop 15 years to do *anything* with an engine. If an engine is going to sit for the next x years without anything being done with it, then at least make it look like the hulk is being worked on.

Then again, I also have problems with restored engines displayed with spotless and clean cabs. That only happens on the maiden trip from the factory or rebuild shop for most engines.

Thanks Ross, at least one person other than me sees the value of a work in progess as an educational resource. The rest of us would rather discuss ad infinitum if an out of service locomotive is a hulk or not. I was hoping that the readers of this forum would take the high road and discuss alternatives for 1361 as a WIP display, but I think my hopes were set too high.