Well we will have a dry run of sorts in 2010 as the NRHS is having its national convention in Scranton. There are the two major hotels downtown, the Hilton and the Radisson at Lackawanna Station and then there are a fair number of the standard Courtyards, Holiday Inns, Hampton Inns, etc. within 15 minutes of Steamtown. After that you have a lot of hotel space in the Pocono Mountains as this is still a fairly substantial vacation area (thanks to the promotions a century ago by the Lackawanna), all less than an hour away. From a logistics point of view, Scranton can handle a big crowd - you should have seen the town when the cast of the NBC show "The Office" visited.

Paul,

You don't think Cleveland/Akron hotel capacity could handle 100K plus? If Owosso and the surrounding area handled 36K, I would think Cleveland/Akron could handle 100K. The bigger issue is where would they run? The CVSR/NPS/former B&O Valley Line is an obvious first choice, however, the NPS in their infinite wisdom have already rebuilt a short concrete structure/culvert/bridge that does not meet Cooper E-80 loadings. They barely allow JJJ's 4-6-2 No. 1293 over the line even though it weighs less than some of CVSR's Alco diesels!

They also have another bridge or two that they feel has lost some capacity over time but the FHWA bridge inspectors haven't really defined what they are rated for. The park thinks that they are around Cooper E-60 or E-65. Further, the access to the wyes at Willow and Akron Jct isn't what it used to be as they are currently both owned by CSXT. Also, there is no real yard or engine facility that could handle the amount of equipment and the crowds to boot. It's really unfortunate because the Valley Line is in a beautiful setting with 131#RE and 132#RE from end to end with great track conditions. CVSR is currently running 30 MPH and the track could handle 50 MPH and more without any problem. There's really no reason that big steam couldn't march up and down the valley. CVSR had approached Ft. Wayne, SRI and even the 1522 group through the years but now it seems the structural weeknesses may have the last say. Now, if NPS acquired the last 8 miles into the flats in Cleveland, you might have some potential with the W.3rd St. roundhouse. MRPS is just in the beginning stages of stabilizing the remaining stalls of the structure that they do not yet occupy and the turntable may not be long enough to handle Berks and Northerns, etc.

Rob Gardner

With all due respect to eldiner I'd hardly call next years NRHS convention a "dry run" of the dream I shared. I hope that for all who attend next years event it is everything they hoped for and then some, but I'll bet it's not even a mere shadow of what I outlined??

On further reflection most of what I dreamt is actually achievable given a few years to get all the pieces together. The critical basics are there,namely the physical plant, mainline quality track with outstanding scenic quality on a lightly used line, sufficient lodging within a reasonable distance, a town hungry for the business, reasonable facilities to service multiple steamers ( coal,water,ashes etc.), and sufficient trackage to accomodate all the visiting equipment ( especially if you were to dispatch the extensive "junkers" to somewhere ( Taylor yard?) off site during the event.

To pull it off the following would be the critical pieces needed.

1. Someone of Jason Johnsons caliber to be the quarterback and be willing to devote several years full time to putting all the pieces together.

2. Buy-in by the Association of American Railroads so that it becomes an important piece in the Class 1's public relations campaign.

3. Buy-in by the ASLRRA ( regionals-shortlines)

4. Political support from the top ( VP BIDEN ? )so that a facility use agreement with the NPS could be reached giving the organizer the authority/flexibility needed to make it work.

5. Sufficient time ( I'd guess at least 3 years) to get it thoroughly planned and executed.


It's an ambitious dream to be sure. The interesting point is that all the major pieces are there and at least in theory could be brought together to pull it off!!

Something to think about!!

Ross Rowland

I'll agree with Ross that comparing his dream to next years NRHS Convention is a bit of an apples vs. oranges comparison. I'm working with a group of very talented people to make sure the 2010 Convention in Scranton exceeds expectations, but I digress.

Much of what Ross outlined was accomplished in 1995 as part of the Museum's Grand Opening. There were 8 steam engines involved in one form or another. MILW 261, CN 3254, CP 2317, BLW 26, NYS&W 142, L&BR 8 and R&N 425. Last minute snafu's prevented the 1225 from making the trip. There were 90 minute trips behind a rotating variety of motive power, demos, night photo sessions and much more. There were also longer distance trips offered throughout the summer.

By all accounts a great event.

Dave

Rob:

I wasn't proposing an event for Cleveland. I was just using the probable hotel capacity of an area I'm familiar with with that of the smaller Scranton area. I do know that every time officials in Cleveland have proposed holding one of the major political conventions there they have lost out because of lack of decent hotel rooms within a reasonable distance. I think that attendance for a political convention would be slightly less than what was proposed for Scranton, so I'm just saying that lodging is a major issue.

I will stand by my conclusion that the greater "we" face problems that go far beyond hosting a dream convention of steam locomotives, and that the preservation "we" should probably put our energies into getting our local houses in order.

Paul, looking at the data on railroad car loadings, the recent economic information, and the rapidly declining value of the US dollar, I think your advice that we should get our own houses in order is excellent.

PC

My point was only that I think there are enough hotels in Scranton and the surrounding tourist areas to support a major event. Also if some people were only coming for one day of an event they could come in from the NY or Philadelphia metro areas (long day but possible). No commentary on the events that might actually take place.

My first visit to Steamtown was a single-day round trip from the Boston area, so those in NY and Philly areas should have absolutely no issues getting there and back for one-day events.

The recent event in Michigan drew tens of thousands.

Show me the last time an NRHS convention even drew 1,500. To get anywhere close to those kind of numbers, they had to "move" the crowd at Lancaster in 1995 to "crash" the Steamtown "opening" gala.

Mr. Rowland, did your dream have any observation car tickets for sale to the public, or were all the 1st class tickets in mid train equipment?

Based on my experience with annual model train club conventions, the ones in the North East draw the biggest crowds by far. There is a medium sized crowd that will travel almost any distance to the event, wherever it is. But the farther West you have the convention, the less day trippers there are who live within a half day's distance of the affair. St. Louis has more livable land and less ocean near it, but more people live "near" Scranton. For may rea$on$, this spectacular has to attract many more than the railfans.
Was there anything in the dream about restoration of the Lackawanna Cutoff for passenger train service from the New York area? I can just imagine some of the New Jersey Transit weekend excursion trains getting steam helpers in Pennsylvania! "It's more than a journey, it's part of the Show!"

Some very valid points/questions raised. Owosso proved that if an event has sufficient drawing power folks are willing to suffer the inconvenience of lodging some distance away. Owosso itself has next to no hotel rooms ( maybe a grand total of 100-150 including the B&B's-which were sold out before it was publically announced), so nearly everyone had to seek lodging in either the greater Flint or Lansing areas, both a good 30-45 minutes away. Scranton by comparison is rich in hotel space within a 15 minute drive or so of the site. Plus, as has been pointed out there are FAR more people within day tripper distance of Scranton vs. Owosso. All that's a non-issue.

Yes, the 1995 event was a small scale version of what I envisioned and generated good crowds and lots of favorable PR. From my unscientific observation of that event I'd guess that the vast majority of the estimated 15,000 participants were day trippers although I'm sure that the Scranton area hotels benefited greatly.

The key challenges to actually doing what I dreamt would be getting the political support from the very top so as to instruct the NPS to execute a facility use agreement with the organizer giving that organizer the flexibility/authority they'd need to pull it off. It obviously wouldn't/couldn't work operating under the current culture--witness the current product. And, equally important is getting someone capable to do all the multi-year work needed to bring all the pieces together.

Scranton is no doubt not the only place it could be done, but it seems to me it's the most appropriate as it is where we have invested a fortune in public monies to tell the important story of our steam heritage, and where we've put our hopes of keeping that flame alive for future generations.

Perhaps, just perhaps, a major gala like this would help insure those goals are realized????

Let's keep dreaming!!!

Ross Rowland

Before the round house roof fell in, CSX was willing to move a special train of steam locomotives to and from Baltimore for their 2003 version of this show. One reason for the special train was to get around their own restrictions on non-modern equipment and journal bearings. Unfortunately, they don't serve Scranton.

Railway museums need lots of land. As such you don't find them in the urban core. As such, 99% of railway preservationists and 100% of steam preservationists are Car People.

Car People, as a class, drive cars everywhere. We shop at Target McDonalds at the generic stores in generic strip malls. We have not been more than 1000 feet from our car in recent memory. Aside from children and the elderly, we feel someone without a car has something wrong with him! Face it, that's our culture.

And here we are, members of that culture, actually wondering where to hotel 100k people in Scranton. Tee hee!

Trainfest was hermetically sealed against invasion by non-car people. You can scarcely blame them though; as a former Michigan resident I assure you the state is a vast wasteland when it comes to transitability... So there would be nothing for them to leverage off of. People who want transitability leave Michigan, as I did. They go to places like...

NYC is a different story. It's transit heaven. An event near NYC must not hermetically seal itself against the rather large railfan base there. Realize rail transit is a massive recruiting ground for railfans.

So.NJT has considered extending a commuter line to Scranton. Thereis the answer, wrapped in a bow, for both the hotel problem and the parking problem you haven't thought of yet. And the transitability too!

Don't paint us all with that broad brush stereotype. Living as I do in an urban environment, I'm rather astonished at the number of non-car-owning railfans I run into, including 3-4 regulars at every local NRHS chapter meeting and some of the Streetcar Museum crew. And the meeting site isn't exactly that transit friendly, either--I usually give at least one of them a lift up to the nearest bus stop along their line, or even all the way home at times.



There are those who would suggest that anyone taking seriously the NJ Transit-to-Scranton proposals should be checked to see if they are partaking of the same substances that seem to have started this thread. Less cynically: don't count chickens before they hatch.

Though, NJ Transit high-speed runs fro Scranton to Hoboken would be a nice fantasy, if only NJ Transit has ANY willingness to touch mainline steam again.......