What does age have to do with it? That shouldn't be the ONLY criteria for what gets preserved. The GP30 was also in a lot better shape than the 4-4-2. But I don't think that the GP30, with its Juniata shop professional paint job, should be shoved outside to rust. That action would a slap in the face of the many, still living, Conrail veterans that may visit.

So there's only one 4-4-2. But there are plenty of other Pennsy steam engines already inside. Shall I suggest one of them be shoved outside? Diesels are the minority in that museum. Considering the RRMPA represent Pennsylvania Railroading history as a whole, and not just PRR steam railroading....

PRR 460 means alot to me, too. Besides seeing it in service on the PRSL and knowing its historical importance, it's one of my all time favorite locos. I don't begrudge the cost but if were to steam...............

My first ever cab ride in a steam engine was the 460 on a trip around the wye at Haddonfield, NJ when it was used with one coach to replace an RDC used in the summer shore service. This was around the summer of 1953.

I am also a life member of the WW&F, so Rod is right on.

Ira Schreiber
Aurora, CO

One of the basic rules of thumb of museum collections management* is that age is NOT important. Significance is the main importance. For the hardcore curatorial staff, the ONLY importance.

* any museum, not just railroading.

--
Will

No, try a favorite of those under, say, 30 or so. Maybe even 40.

Remember, I'm older than an awful lot of railfans, and here's what *I* grew up with: GP9's on locals, GP35/GP40's (and, YES, GP30's) and U-Boats (and the "last" of the big Alcos) on mainline freights, SD40's and SD45's on the Horse Shoe Curve, GP40-2's on Chessie's "Orange Blossom Special", and the Chessie Safety Express and 614........... Oh, and I'm JUST old enough to have passed yards full of GG1's and E44's.

For the record, there are approximately fifteen GP30's preserved, counting a pair being "consumed" at the Western Md. Scenic and another at the New Hope & Ivyland. Aside from those, you might be hard-pressed to find ten or more of the original 948 or so built still in any form of non-preservation revenue service. Ohio Central has at least one, the Cimarron Valley in Kansas has a couple, and the Indiana & Ohio just put a former Nickel Plate one on the Cincinnati Railway's new dinner train operation......... http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 83&nseq=40

And Brother Kaplan, may I gently remind you (and others) of C&NW 1015 in St. Louis, SP 3025 at Travel Town in Los Angeles, two Great Northern (UK) Atlantics in Britain, I think one in Belgium or Germany........... and, yes, PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD "7002" (actually former 8063) AT STRASBURG?!?!? Or did Frederick Westing's Apex of the Atlantics so thoroughly impress you that you now recognize no other 4-4-2 than a PRR E6s?

A GP30 can better withstand being outside than a steam locomotive can. Whats a GP 30 other than sheet metal? Cover over the fans and a few other openings, put a good clear coat over the paint job and it will last for a good long while.

A steam locomotive is nothing but a maze of piping and exposed machinery. Much of that piping and machinery are very difficult to keep painted, and corrosion happens in spaces where it can cause unseen damage.

Also, I don't recall that particular GP 30 being the last of its kind. There are still many more examples out there, but try to find another PRR E6.

The real answer is to erect a shelter for the outdoor equipment, but given the fact that this is a government run museum a simple shelter would run into the millions to build after all the palms are greased, bureaucrats satisfied and regulations complied with.

One last thought. The PRR steam collection is a unique collection in itself, and all pieces of that collection deserve an equal amount of preservation and protection. it does no good to pit the significance of the E6 vs the K4 or the M1 or DD1s. All are equally significant as part of the PRR collection, one of the most complete of one road's motive power to be found in one location.

The museum spent a good penny on the gp30's paint job. It's not a Krylon special. You put that engine outside, it will look horrible in no time. Believe me: I work with engines that spend their lives outside. After a few years, the paint may look OK from far away, but get close and you see the damage. It would be foolish to do that to this engine, especially since it gets opened up a lot to visitors. Plus the kids really love the blue (wonder why...?).


That GP30 may not be the last of its kind, but is the only GP30 (and conrail painted locomotive) the museum has. Therfore it is just as important as the 4-4-2 of the DD1, or the fireless engines. Esp. if you want to actually give the "younger" crowd something they can relate to. Horrors.

Remember: it is the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, not the PRR museum.

Then what is your solution?

There is also the Michigan Central (NYC) 4-4-2 at the Henry Ford Museum (Greenfield Village). If #460 is actually restored cosmetically, I would vote that she go inside. I admit that I am not a big fan of diesels, nor Conrail for that matter, but in this case, I can understand the logic of keeping the GP-30 where she is. Is there not some way that the equipment couldn't be rearranged so that there would be room for BOTH inside? Or is space actually that tight?

Les

Not my decision to make.

Yes. You might be hard-pressed to add a Fairmont track speeder.

You want me to pick? I've LONG advocated that one or more of the "other" PRR steamers--the B6sb, one of the 2-8-0's, or the L1s--should be transferred to Altoona for display--not surrendering ownership, mind you, and it should go under cover in a roundhouse stall, of course, but let them have a real display piece in decent shape. Bugger that, does Strasburg even need TWO Atlantics?

In my worthless opinion, the RRMusPa can definitely spare 2-3 PRR steamers. The real problem is that 1) nobody has seriously proposed a worthwhile, equally good/worthy display location; 2) anyone that might want one has nothing worthy of a "fair trade," and 3) even if such a proposal were forthcoming, it would take, to quote a former RR Museum of Pa. official, "an act of God himself countersigned by Allah, Buddha, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster" before the Museum were permitted, by Commonwealth regulations, to even try such a trade.

The National Railway Museum's collection in the UK is so incredibly vast that numerous pieces are scattered throughout the country, yes some operable, other static. Ownership does not change, they are on loan.

Why do we not seem to be able to do that here, with any major collection not just RRMPA? One or two PRR engines could go to Scranton and be in the roundhouse. The NYC engine in St Louis could go to Albany, yes even the DL&W camel could go to Scranton or NJ SHORT TERM, saw for the 2010 Scranton convention.

These places and more have wonderful collections, if it weren't for the money and as long as collections standards/procedures are met, then why not?

Joshua

The big problem is sheer distance. When the NRM sends out a piece on loan, it's moving the distance, say, from Strasburg to Scranton, from Albany to Buffalo, or at absolute worst from Vermont to Virginia. Or maybe IRM to Green Bay. Heck, LA to San Francisco is almost the same distance as London-Edinburgh, and Miami-Atlanta is almost end-to-end for Britain! St. Louis-Scranton would be akin to shipping a piece from York to Berlin or Rome.

I agree with many of the posters that the GP 30 could be better prepared to withstand the outdoor climate. But why just single out the GP 30. I'll bet there are a few cars inside that could be moved outside.

Let me suggest one solution. 460 served the last few years of her operating life running out to Pemberton. Give her back to us and we will take much better care of her and even work to put her back in steam. And, yes, we've asked and were told NO! But we've heard these stories before. "What's mine is mine and if it just sits, so be it."

Later!
Mr. Ed

Photo taken today by an associate, or so he says:



As for Mr. Ed, please do not take the slight by the Museum personally. As I am to understand it, virtually ANY such proposal by any party, even one with a demonstrable track record and mucho moolah behind it, would have met with much the same reaction. I doubt even the Strasburg RR could again obtain a lease of a Museum locomotive of the type that gave us PRR 1223 in operation from the 1960s through the 1980s, or the return of PRR "7002" to steam in the 1980s.

As I understand it, such Draconian "protection" of the Museum's collection has far less to do with any curatorial decisions or strategic management practices than it does with attempting to preemptively address potential problems with state museum officials pursuing asset deacquisition and movement in a manner that personally and financially benefited said officials. This has apparently happened in the past in Pennsylvania and elsewhere. The downside of this, of course, is that it makes it impossible to deaccess, by almost any means, a selection of, say, South African Railways number and builder's plates if that's lurking in the basement. (I know of something far more desirable down there, but it will sit forever like the Ark of the Covenant at the end of the Indiana Jones movie, thanks to those arcane regulations.)

I must say, I am actually personally offended by the insistence, and even intonation, that the GP30 is not worthy of protection.

It is currently the ONLY "preserved" CR unit in existence. Yes it has its issues (wrong font on the nose, etc...), but it is extremely short sited to say that something that is in good shape should be sacrificed because it IS in that good shape.

By that same token, should the PRR GP that's in there go too? After all, there are actually multiples of those around. As far as I'm concerned, if the museum were to some day acquire and SD80mac, I'd be the first to say toss one of the two PRR 4-4-2s out into the weather, after all, there will be two of them...

Remember, railroad preservation is a big tent, and stuffed and mounted steam locomotives are NOT the only attraction.