Also note that the only comparable case to this to be appealed to the United States Supreme Court was that of the General. The court refused to take up that matter entirely. I can hardly imagine that the case of the 972 raises any constitutional issue sufficient enough to warrant the attention of the court. We can debate this forever but that will only succeed in wasting time and effort that could probably be spent better on other concerns.

Well when we finish 565 I would love to see 972 next to her, even if it's just a visit! Yeah I know the cost but to have the last two steamers of DL&W next to each other, on their home turf, even for a short time photo shoot I think that would be awesome.
My idea is to have some big press coverage when we do finish 565 up and I would like to invite the folks from the chapter to come by and enjoy the party. Plus quite a few folks around the local area who had a hand with 565 throughout her history to come and hopefully close the chapters on this engine. Steve Helper who's awesome history book on her will be invited too. Without him we would have had alot more work trying to track down the history on this engine.

Although I am no longer active in the Lackawanna Chapter of the R&LHS ( the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the MOT in St. Louis), on account of moving far outside their territory, I can tell you that the folks behind the suit have every intention of financing her complete restoration to service should they win a court ordered verdict against the MOT that instructs the MOT to return her to her owners.

IIRC they have chosen an eastern shop ( no-not Scranton!) to do the work and have agreed upon a plan of work to be performed by that contractor. The shop has estimated it will take approx. 22 months, and approx. $ 1.3 million to do the job!!

They also hope to have her done in time to pull the inaugural train over the Cut-Off when through service is re-established from Hoboken to Scranton via the Delaware Water Gap route of the DL&W.

I believe the 972 had the honor of pulling the first train over the Cut-Off when it originally opened early in the 20th. Century???

So Mr. Boonstra, it's possible that someday your side by side photo idea might actually happen!!!

Hope springs eternal!!

Ross Rowland

Um, guys? Guys, let's all take a step back and get our stories straight here. A bunch of bandwidth has been used in discussing and discussing and discussing this matter. It's in the hands of a judge now, so let's let him do his job. Meanwhile, it seems that even some of the most partisan on both sides have somehow gotten their numbers mixed up. The locomotive in St. Louis is DL&W 952, not 972. It really blows your credibility all to heck when you rant about the wrong locomotive. Can we please return to more useful discussion?

Ooooopppsss! Our bad! Hey we can dream can't we! You are right let's have the judge make the decision.

Whew, for a second I thought we had a CPR D-10 dragged into the morass!

So after the lawyers get paid, they're prepared to drop another $1.3 million into this locomotive? At what point does it become cheaper and easier just to build a replica?

Total madness! Does it ever end? Get over it, you lost!

Ego's and politics are the down fall of so many preservation organizations and projects. It seems to me that that it would have been much simpler for the people who want this locomotive to have simply negotiated a purchase price (or a suitable trade), and bought the damned thing. It would have been much simpler, cheaper and faster than paying all the lawyers and everyone would have come away happy. Yes, it would have cost more than the recently sold S-160 2-8-0, or any of the other locomotives that have changed hands recently. So what, rarity increases market value. If I ever win the lottery, one of the first things I'm going to do is offer our friends at Strasburg a ridiculously high price for 475. If cooler heads had prevailed from beginning, and no one on either side had gone in with an attitude of "entitlement", we might would have been able to ride an excursion behind this loco next weekend. The Lackawanna folks would have their engine, and St. Louis would have the funds to cosmetically restore 2 or 3 other locomotives in their collection. The whole situation is an unfortunate waste.

It would have look better all around if everyone worked something out. Think of what the money spent thus far could have accomplished if spent directly on equipment.

Gary, IIRC didn't Bob Claytor offer St. Louis a sizeable amount of trackwork and other improvements to have 2156 returned to Roanoke to reunite with 611 and 1218 for a classic lineup of the Y, J and A. Imagine those three at WB (west end of Roanoke yard).

I couldn't agree more with Gary Gray. I can attest as I was then somewhat involved that early on serious offers were made to the MOT to trade/sell the 952,all of which were declined. At that point or thereabouts the litigation was commenced.

At this point the more than $ 100,000 ( and counting) that has been expended on lawyers could certainly have been better spent elsewhere. What makes this additionally difficult is that on the MOT side you're dealing with a large public entity with lots of lawyers/money etc. and far removed from the artifact in question or the merits of the central issues in the argument.

As to Frisco's comment...no it's never over 'till the fat lady sings...and she hasn't even cleared her throat yet!!!

Stay tuned!!

Ross Rowland

Interesting point. Is there someone in charge of the money (in St Louis County), who is eventually going to say, "enough is enough?" I'm not taking sides, but the county must be paying their lawyers with taxpayer money just to keep a steam locomotive... I don't think most people would understand the expenditure, if they knew about it.

Stephen

You make an excellent point Stephen. To the best of my knowledge the St. Louis area media has not yet exposed that point to the area public. Perhaps it's something the Plaintiffs team should strive for as I think you're correct that the general public might well say enough is enough???

Stay tuned!!

Ross Rowland

Good grief!

I simply fail to see why people with "very deep pockets" would be willing to spend 1.3 million to restore a locomotive that has what (owag here) 25,000 LBs of tractive effort?

What kind of train could such an engine pull (unassisted) in that territory, 3 coaches?

Lets be honest folks, this is PENNSYLVANIA we are talking about (still no budget due 7/1/09) and when that first train runs over the cutoff, you can bet your bottom dollar there's be at least three PV's on the end holding well-fed and catered politicians looking for face time on Channel 16, eager to tell us how they (well, predecessors) managed to spend millions of dollars (of our money) to restore a piece of railroad (that languished and died primarily due to stupid ICC government interference).

Did 4-4-0's ever run the Pocono main after the days of diamond-stacked woodburners? What's the historical value in having THIS particular locomotive make that run? Why not redirect that warchest to 565 and try talking the NPS into allowing it to be restored to operating condition?

I think there's serious denial about a sad reality here. Except 952 and 565, every other Lackawanna steamer was sent to the scrapper. Maybe the urban legend about the then Mayor of Scranton refusing a Pocono for Nay Aug park is true. Maybe the story about the Pacific in the Delaware is true. None of it matters.

What does matter is that because nothing truly relevant to the latter steam era of the DL&W exists, there's a desire to see SOMETHING, ANYTHING lettered Lackawanna run over those tracks, even if it wasn't something that operated there once regularly (or at all).

And then there's the big safety issue with Camelbacks-the separation of the crew. That'll just thrill the risk management people.

If I had 1.3 mil for restoration, plus how much more to continue paying lawyers, I'd quit paying the lawyers and start contacting engineers and the people in England get a first hand account of the issues involving in REPLICATING A 4-6-2.

A nice 1100 series Pacific, yeah that's the ticket.

However, I'm guessing (another purely uninformed wag) at some point, this will be dismissed and become a footnote in some civil procedure textbook at best.