Yeah, we'll all watch. Sorry if my comments aren't appreciated by others on here, but remember that when you gripe about a poorly funded museums attempting to do something considered a "pipe dream" or when you comment on how badly steamtown is run (truth or not) or how bad Amtrak is doing or not doing and how underfunded or overfunded it is, or how the owners of Grand Canyon see it fit to curtail steam operations to save money...or use veggie oil to run it when they do....its all relative.

Poor business model, poor return on investment regardless of the rate of expected return.

With regards to this entie proposal as being insinuated thus far, I'm just gonna go grab the popcorn, pull up a chair, and watch the fur and feathers fly from the sidelines........... but the animosity that's guaranteed to fly here will undoubtedly come from two fronts:

1) The odds are that this operation will end up being something like a $1000-a-head fare, thus arousing the ire of those who very truly can't afford such a fare no matter how opulent the ride (I sure as heck can't), then instigating cries of "nobody's supporting our operation, they just want to take photos from trackside..."

2) Rowland's track record since the Chessie Safety Express of 1981 has been decidedly mixed: American Coal Enterprises (no sale), NJ Transit (success depends on who you talk to), 21st Century Limited (no sale), Yellow Ribbon Express (apparently no takers), and now this latest suggestion. Saying "there's been a paradigm shift" since 1987 (Chase, Md. and Great Dismal Swamp), or 1994 (NS passenger train switching accident) only cuts so far, as evidenced by 4449, Union Pacific, Ohio Central, and Milwaukee 261. At some point, one simply has to ask whether the problem is Ross Rowland himself--and I REALLY don't want to make it a personal attack about the person; rather, Rowland's own administrative and "hands-on" management style has inevitably (and by his choosing) made it all about Rowland, far more so than, say, Bill Gates has made Microsoft about Bill Gates or Steve Jobs has made Apple about Steve Jobs. I could argue that the two now-long-forgotten CP Pacifics and rolling stock in Staunton, Va. are similarly "victims" of such a personality-driven management style.

The inevitable question is, would such a proposal "fly" if brokered by, just as a not-so-random example, Xanterra's "railroad division" arranging everything with their surplus first-class equipment in Williams, Arizona and leasing 614? Or Greenbrier's management hiring the Strasburg Railroad or Ohio Central to manage the operation?

The R&N tucks a couple of SD-50's behind a relatively small Pacific-providing the go for the 425's show;
The SD-50s are used as little as possible.....mostly to obtain track speed and dynamics with the large trains. You cant say it doesn't earn its keep.

And so I didn't say that it didn't earn its keep, but there's no way that 425 could pull those 12 plus heavyweights and a spare canteen up those grades unassisted. I don't find the SD-50's a problem, if I did, I wouldn't have purchased 6 tickets from the R&N in the past year or so. I only noticed them once, outside of Tamaqua, when the slack ran in-and only knew it was the diesels because I heard the 425 call for less dynamic brake. Otherwise, you don't even know they are there.

You missed my point. The R&N gets enough people behind the 425's rear coupler by augmenting it with diesels. That would've been heresy at one time, but its a concession to economic reality that makes the operation work.

Please get your facts straight: Great Dismal Swamp was 1987 and 1994 was a direct collision, not a side-swipe. Beyond that, your point about management styles has some validity, but is still nonetheless somewhat personal. Frankly, I'm not sure whose business it is of anyone's what Ross or Jack does with his own private property, as long as it's not infringing on your rights or liberty. Too many have adopted the busy-body persona as a way of life, and frankly they need to stay out of everyone else's business. This spills over into our current national debates on taxes, healthcare, and the like. It goes without saying that Ross's well known disdain for Steamtown sometimes falls within this as well, but as a government entity, SNHS is subject to more scrutiny than most other organizations are.

Michael Brown
Atlanta, GA
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master." - Ayn Rand

I'm still arguing that mixed results are superior to no results and either is superior to not even trying anymore. Even that is superior to not having ever tried. Since I don't know the individual involved personally, I have no dog in that fight either way.

If an individual with some degree of personality and drive adopted a proposal and ran with it, we'd see a lot of activity and results. For this reason, a certain amount of flamboyance is required of any producer........of an event as big as a steam program. Let's not discourage it.

In the couple decades I worked in this business, I've seen any number of proposals generated and very few tried, and fewer still succeed. None of those successes would have happened had they not been at some point proposed.

Now I'm working on proposals at work for things that can provably recoup costs of implementation in operating cost savings in less than a year - with pure gravy for the following decade. NONE of those are being implemented with any degree of priority, none are unproven or off-the-wall and most used in other of the company's facilities. Still, no implementation. Process is all here, results are of lesser interest. Such is the nature of any proposal - and the more potentially risky or unfamiliar, the greater the obstacles.

Still no reason to give up.

dave

Corrections to before-my-first-cup-of-tea memory made.

I will freely agree that it's none of my business what an individual does with his or her property, up to a point, taking into consideration proper consideration of such things as the rights and safety of others.

There are two other considerations at work, however.

First, with the incredibly rare exceptions of cases like the Ohio Central, Blue Mt. & Reading, or UP or CP, anyone attempting a project of the scale being discussed has to, by necessity, involve a rail network not owned by them. The Disney "Christmas Carol" train currently running is an example. Others amongst us probably have inclinations towards working with these same rail network owners/operators. Therefore, it is incumbent upon anyone working with said operators to carefully nurture whatever goodwill is involved, and not "poison the well" for others.

Example relevant to me personally: If I am brewing fine, carefully-concocted craft beers in my little brewpub in the historic district, does it matter one iota to me that some big flashy chain of brewpubs in a neon-and-chrome place along the Interstate is pulling in busloads to drink hastily-brewed Bud/Miller/Coors substitutes and passing them off as "microbrews"? It sure as [bleeping] heck matters, because that place will turn off ten times more people to the idea of "microbrews" than my place will ever convert to the idea. And if that place closes without warning, leaving tens of thousands or millions in unpaid rent, water bills, and other obligations, what is that going to do for the next guy who hopes to open a brewpub in town, no matter what his credit record or my track record?

In a dream world, a derailment of an excursion train in a swamp or a crown sheet failure of a CP Pacific wouldn't affect, say, the guys working on CNJ 113 or the folks at the Grand Canyon RR. The bitter reality is that such things are biting all of us in the posterior daily. We have for too long been one derailment or other physical disaster away from steam/heritage railroading being completely relegated to the history books.

I AM NOT saying or even implying that Mr. Rowland does anything unsafely. What I am saying is that we, as an "industry", can't afford to have anyone do something that would make these operators reject a similar proposal later on because of "bad apples" preceding them.

Go ahead. Approach NJ Transit with a sound proposal to run Port Jervis weekend trips with a thoroughly-vetted and proven steamer--PM 1225, Milwaukee 261, NKP 765, etc. Tell me what they say to you.

Its sad that we have to pull our hair out so hard all the time, lord or mercy. Why do proposals have to be shread by critisicm and collapse?

If people are interested in this we should back the Greenbrier Hotel and Ross Rowland in this venture and help ,not hurt.

I find all of this negative talk about Ross and the assumed impossibility of making these proposed trains work amusing. Nobody on this board (including me) knows the details or business plan, but it is already doomed to failure. If this does come to fruition, I'll bet the same people who are dumping on this will be the first ones at trackside with their cameras in hand.

Just to lighten things up here a a bit, "one of the last steam locomotives built in the U.S.", built in 1950, is located only one state away and currently FRA certified to operate.


Of course it might need a little diesel help, and be a bit slow, but what the heck!

.

What happened in 1994?

Peter -

Because a few readers here might not know the story, the engine pictured was built by Porter in 1950 and was supposedly the LAST Porter steam engine built, at least for a domestic customer. Supposedly #3, the old Baldwin steamer that was in use at the Saint Elizabeths Hospital in Washington, D.C. was worn out and the master mechanic in charge of the engines maintenance told the head of the hospital that he had no experience with diesels and requested a new steam locomotive. Because the head of the hospital had "more important" things to worry about, he gave the okay. Baldwin was approached but said that they no longer could make a replacement engine and directed them to Porter, who took on the order. Thus 0-4-0T #4, the engine pictured, which is now used on occassion at the B&O Railroad Museum. Thanks for posting the photo, and for the "tongue-in-cheek" comments.

Les

These forums are full of classy gentlemen who have toiled to keep steam operating all throughout my lifetime, speaking respectfully of their peers, helping each other out as part of a big fraternity. Then there's one guy who did some great things 30 years ago and has spent every minute since then destroying his own reputation, talking down about other people's operations while his equipment sits. Remind me again why I should show any respect?

Because you gain respect by showing respect.

John Bohon

Don't let the nattering naybobs of negativism depress you. As I've often posted I learned many years ago that they go with the territory and I guess in some perverse way play a constructive role long term, towards what we're attempting to accomplish!!

Every field of endeavor has its fair share of Monday morning quarterbacks and ours didn't escape.

As I've also often opined the most important rule of all is to examine the track record of the party doing the talking. What have they accomplished? If you'll do that as a first step you'll discover that in 99.99% of the cases the answer is that their accomplishment track record is blank!

Also, Scripture teaches us that trouble makers are troubled people and need our prayers not our condemnation. I work hard at practiceing this teaching.

The project that is the subject of this thread is in the early planning stages and a long ways yet from fruition. There are still many hurdles to overcome and it may well never see the light of day. All I'm at liberty to say now is that it is based on a very solid business plan and has the serious attention of the caliber of people who can make it a reality.

I hope to be able to share more soon.

Never give up dreaming and striving to bring your dreams into reality!!!

Best regards, Ross Rowland