I'm new here.

I will just say that I hope that we will see future main line steam operations here in the East. I think that it is important for the younger generation (myself included since I'm 17) to see what a steam locomotive is, what it sounds like when it's working hard, and all the work it takes to maintain it. I know that I'm probably too young to truely understand the economics of running a steam locomotive, but I really think that railroads like CSX and NS would really make a lot friends by running steam specials. I think it is just a darn shame that many young people like myself may never get to see a large steam locomotive like 614 run again. Again, I hope that this all works out.

Martin

Welcome to the board, Martin!

I can't comment on what will or should happen with this proposed Washington DC steam operation, but I wanted to let you know... Since 1829, (180 years) there hasn't been a year without steam locomotives operating on American rails. Even the very first steam operations were considered too much work and money. The Delaware & Hudson Canal Co. decided it was a failure, yet others have picked up the torch to keep trains running behind steam.

It is over 50 years since most railroads gave up steam. Yet still, a pocket of steam enthusiasts have found the money, the will and the skill to maintain, restore and even build brand new steam engines. I think that well into your life, you will be able to watch and ride steam trains, plus participate in preservation. Keep up with us and other rail groups, and help us to carry the torch forward.

Kevin -

You've got it right on the surviving numbers of Van Sweringen 2-8-4's of the C&O, Nickel Plate and Pere Marquette. One of the series of similar Berks that also did not survive, and are often missed in recounts, are the 5 class BA 2-8-4's that were built for the Virginian Railway. The engines, bearing numbers 505-509, were built by Lima in 1946, shortly after the builder built Kanawha's 2740-2749 for the C&O. The major difference on the Virginian engines was that the sand dome and steam dome were combined and the tenders had a different configuration. Otherwise, they were very close to the C&O engines in appearance.

And you are right Rob, in stating that a Kanawha could handle a train about as well as the 614. The C&O did assign them to handle regularly scheduled passenger trains, including the railroads crack "George Washington", but also football specials, troop trains, and in 1948, a K4 was even on the point of President Truman's 1948 campaign train between Lexington and Ashland, Kentucky. Surely one could act as backup to the 614, should the need ever arise.

Les

Since I am not familiar with the distance and grades involved,how far is it between D.C. and White Sulphur Springs? Any place in either location that would work as a servicing facility? Coach yard? Water enroute or carry it all with you?

...if we're all obliged to "dream big" then why do some of the same people saying that, criticize the National Park Service and the Government for "dreaming big" and yet, according to them, produce small or no results at all with a certain rail related park, which is using OPM as well to fund its daily expenses?

There are sucessful operators/tions, as noted on here, that might be able to pull something like this off, and I have said from the start that this indeed might get off the ground, however, I questioned the sustainability of the whole project and its cost effectiveness and not just in terms of dollars either.

It's about 250 miles from DC to WSS. I believe the ruling grade would be Allegheny Mountain, W. of Clifton Forge to Big Bend Tunnel (of John Henry legend). I don't know the exact percentage of the grade, but I'm guessing around or just over 1%. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Since this part of the route is the railroad the Greenbriers were designed for, with a reasonably-sized train it shouldn't be a problem.

Coal and water would just have to be done on an ad hoc basis - coal pile and front-end loader or gon of coal and bucket loader, local fire depts. and hoses for water - at least until the operation became entrenched enough to warrant something like a metered fire hydrant (arrangement at Akron Jct. for the Cuyahoga Valley Line in the 4070 era).

At DC, the Amtrak facility is Ivy City, out along New York Av., NE. They have a turntable in back of the commissary bldg, but I'm thinking it's not long enough to accommodate a big Northern or Berk. The CSX main and terminal leads form a wye for turning an entire train or engine. Also, there's a real capacity question there as to whether they would be willing/able to handle a private train on a regular basis. They've long been slammed for space, especially with MARC and VRE commuter trains during weekdays.

As far as I know, there are really no facilities at WSS. Hinton would have been the nearest terminal facility, but even when the New River excursions were being run with steam in the early '90's, the steam facilities had been torn out. I've got to believe that by now the place is just a shell of it's former self. Just have to find a siding to park the train on to service it. At least it's not like leaving it overnight in the 'hood of a major city.

Paul,

Another 12 miles or so west on the RR is Meadowcreek Wye where they turned 765/261 after the Hinton turntable was taken OOS.

Rob Gardner

Hi Rob;

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier in this thread. Very steep grade on the wye. I don't know if they could turn the entire train without assistance. I know about the grade because one of the highlights of my life was riding around the wye in the cab of #765 from Montgomery in '91 (thanks to RPM and first place B&W in the NRHS Huntington convention photo contest!).

Martin,

Glad to have you join. Depending on where you are located, be patient, hopefully, the big iron will show as long as there is a thread if interest left in this business.

I have not yet cracked 50 but I was fortunate to witness a fair amount of big steam in my teenage years. A large block of it was in the 80's thanks to Ross Rowland who posts on this site. If he had not executed the Freedom Train & Chessie Steam Specials, I would not have been so fortunate. Don't pass by the Strasburg Railroad here in Lancaster County. It is absolutely a 1st class operation.

The closest large mainline locomotives in the Northeast are likely in the stable of the Ohio Central, the largest being their 4-8-4.

I have been trackside when the 614 passed a track speed and it is breathtaking. If they use a 6-chime Reading passenger whistle, the package is complete. The Reading whistle sounds fast even when the locomotive is not moving.

With the 614, you get a glimpse of what was the pinnacle of the art in steam design in the 1940's. The 614 esthetically is a very impressive machine.

My personal favorite was the New York Central Niagara 4-8-4. As for looks, not that great, but what they achieved in their very short life was amazing. They were able to cruse at 100 MPH. They ran ~ 900 miles from Harmon, New York to Chicago, IL. They were serviced and turned and sent right back. They had a small water tank but massive coal bunker. The small tank was used since they scooped water from track pans at several locations enroute. The PT tenders on the Niagara's were ventilated in order to scoop water at 80 MPH. I believe I read the Niagara's reached a peak of 25,000 miles per month in some cases. This level of performance may have been matched by the famous Hudsons, 4-6-4's, but the Niagara had more drawbar capacity. Going from memory, The Niagara may have had a peak of ~ 5000 drawbar horsepower at 50-55 MPH. Unfortunately all the Niagara's met the torch and none where saved but while they were here.......they ran like the wind.

If you ever get the chance to see large steam, go for it. As we progress, the opportunities may get fewer. Trust me, get as close to the tracks as is reasonably safe. You need to not only see it but feel it......from the noise, the smell and the ground shaking under your feet. As for smell, walk into one of the working roundhouse sections at Steamtown in one of their facility tours. Breath deep.....oil, coal smoke, combo of both?....the smell of hard working machines....absolutely awsome....women would cringe.

It good to see interest from the younger group. It will keep the spirit going.

Regards,

Randy

And Martin, NEVER assume that something running right now will stay as such. Assume every time you get the chance to see something in steam that you'll never see if warm again. I have had the foresight to see a lot of stuff in steam that's cold now and missed some great opportunities. Trust me on this, when the Norfolk Southern ended their steam program, it was a huge to shock to those not in the know at the time.
People talk smack about the RDG 2100 "dinner train to nowhere" at Tacoma in 2005, but I paid to ride it. Best $50 I spent that summer and I'm darned glad I did it now, got to watch a Reading 4-8-4 do a runby right beside me!
Same with all the other steam I've seen. Someday you will be older and telling the younger people about when you saw engines running that they only know as cold steel by then...

A lot of us here have responded to Martin's posts. He represents the future of rail preservation that all of us are trying to reach. He lives in my area, is a very nice young man and a very talented artist. I second every word of encouragement that has been given here.

Martin, One thing that I have learned over the past 35 or so years in rail preservation is "never say never". Always fight the good fight. As soon as your mom starts letting you come to Roanoke on your own on weekends, we have a bunch of tools waiting with your name on them, and even a possible project for you to run. A certain 4-8-0 of my aquaintance is looking forward to meeting you, and we have a number of car projects lurking on the back burner. RYPN is the best place for you to be for sharing knowledge on railway preservation. At 9th St, you can get your hands (not to mention clothes, face, hair, etc) dirty and feel like part of a great team. You will find good friends and plenty of encouragement in both locations, real and virtual. Follow your dreams. You'll probably feel frustrated at how slow things move, but then again, you might wake up in 20 or so years and find yourself running a museum or working at a tourist railroad. It sure beats waiting for a pension at Wal-Mart.

I hope some bitter old codger who used to be somebody 30 years ago doesn't threaten to sue him over an internet message board and sour his opinion of rail preservationists.

I wish to thank all of you who have responded to me on my last post. I feel a lot of times that when I talk, few people ever listen. I'm glad that I came here to join. Now I feel like I have a voice.

Gary, I would love to come down and help at 9th Street as soon as I can. I'm sure my commanding General would approve. :) And thanks for your compliments too.

And to everyone else, thanks again for making me feel welcome.

You are very welcome! Feel free to ask any questions you may like and I'm sure between us all you will get the right answers. Stop in and say hello to as many outfits as you can, and most of all enjoy yourself!

Martin,
Don't be dragged down by people airing age-old issues and grudges. Make your own informed decisions and accept opinions for exactly what they are. This is an open forum and, with reason, is a place where people come to share information and hold beneficial discussions. Learn and be mentored, keep an open mind and study the preservation movement in Great Britain if you want to understand how to get something done. They seem to be able to avoid the petty b.s. that so hamstrings much of the movement in this country. It is a very rewarding hobby with some wonderful people, interesting characters and an occasional "wack job". You will learn who is who quickly enough and which speculation and rumor to discount, like which barn or gravel pit houses a recently-discovered NYC Hudson. Most of all, enjoy yourself but remain vigilant around equipment and tools. Steel on steel is very unforgiving and can result in a lifetime of misery. Welcome aboard for the ride.

Don C.