As someone who is personally watching an incredible amount of petty balderdash flying back and forth between several U.K. locomotive-owning groups, their members, and the people who actually get things done, I find that above statement hilarious. (Imagine if the PRRT&HS or a similar group owned a pair of operable PRR E8's just like Bennet Levin's, and petty balderdash were flying back and forth over which set was properly preserved, which one would handle the NRHS convention trip, etc., and you'd have an idea. Then add in specialized parts and tools, as if we were talking Baldwin Centipedes, Limas, or GG1's.)

The major difference with Britain is that there has been a long-established history and track record of mainline operation, which survived the privatisation of British Rail. For that and a variety of other reasons, there's no problem of big steamers "all fixed up with nowhere to go;" mainline steam usually gets "track speed" (80+ mph in places) instead of being limited to 25 or 40 mph; there's lots of vintage and not-so-vintage passenger stock available for excursions; etc. If we had this cultural mindset in American railroading, North American rail preservation would look substantially different today.

Mr. Mitchell IV,

I'm glad you found my statement, referring to the preservation movement in Great Britain having the ability to build a full-size, mainline-certified, steam locomotive and operate it successfully, hysterical. When the replica New York Central Hudson is built here and successfully operated on a Class 1 mainline, I'll give the U.S. preservation movement (even though a replica really isn't preservation) a little more respect. The Tornado project tips the scale for Great Britain. No project of that magnitude has been seriously discussed in North America, yet the very same bickering, petty jealousy and general b.s also exist here. Point and set goes to Britain.

Your belittling response is exactly what I was attempting to prepare Martin for on this board. If the egos and arrogance could be controlled, the whole movement would be much better off. That includes some of the posts on this board.

Don C.

If we had this cultural mindset in American railroading, North American rail preservation would look substantially different today.


Britain also has something called "loser pays", in business "cultural mindsets" don't count for squat relative to to the legal climate.

Again, I point out: I've actually seen and experienced the OTHER stuff. Tornado gets the positive press, yes, but that's one project out of hundreds. It's hard to throw a rock in the UK without hitting some preserved line or station, be it splendid or something that would make some of our "rolling junkyards" look good. I would make the case that IF the entire U.S. were as small and densely populated/railed as Britain, we probably would have a NYC Hudson under development. But some of the other stuff going on over there smacks of the old PRR-NYC rivalry still being fought forty years after the merger that rendered it moot, or the infighting that led to the limbo of the URHS in New Jersey.



The British have much for us to envy, and we can learn great things from the best of them. But please don't operate under the delusion that all is hunky-dory and beautiful over there, with all rail groups singing "Kumbayah" and "Will the Circle Be Unbroken" with endless support from a benevolent government. Britain certainly has its share of PRR 1361, Steamtown, Georgetown Loop, Maine Narrow Gauge RR Museum, Southern Michigan Railroad Society, and EBT scenarios just as we do, as any regular reader of Railway Magazine, Heritage Railway, or their forums and groups would know.

Imagine if--just to make up an example--the Illinois Railway Museum or a D&H-themed museum got a hold of the last two Baldwin Sharks in Michigan, but to restore them both back to operation they need parts that ONLY SMS Services has--and SMS Services won't let them have the parts. (Totally fictitious scenario, BTW.) That exact situation, BR diesel style, is being flamed to death in my inbox almost every day, because I'm a member of one of those groups in question, and the name-calling and ugliness--mostly by guys sitting on the figurative sidelines--has gotten reprehensible.

One thing I noticed when surfing through tourist rail operator sites in the U.K. is they never show the web sites of other rail operators in their "Links" section, which we do here all the time. They only show local, non-competing attractions that might increase their own ridership.

The U.K. operators seem to understand they are in business and are all competing with each other for the same tourist dollars. Why would you ever provide free advertising for your competitor?

Over here many "Links" sections show lots of other rail museums or tourist railroads. This approach is much less business like and far more club-like, or a movement supporting thing. " Rail Museums and Tourist railroads are good things and everyone should support all of them." Nice, but not necessarily good business.

People who fret about the petty bickering might pause to consider a world without it.

I believe in another thread, I made the point that free elections are valued by volunteers. Imagine if all that didn't exist, and we all agreed because we had to, because there were fascistic leaders who didn't tolerate dissent. Seen that once or twice. Not fun.

I'll take my bickering, thanks.

People who fret about the petty bickering might pause to consider a world without it.

I believe in another thread, I made the point that free elections are valued by volunteers. Imagine if all that didn't exist, and we all agreed because we had to, because there were fascistic leaders who didn't tolerate dissent. Seen that once or twice. Not fun.

I'll take my bickering, thanks.


INDEED! Although the implications of the first sentence might not have the impact it should on a world OD'd on conflict resolution.

The very freedoms that allow us our petty bickering were secured by petty bickering (punctated by bloodshed).

The only place there was no petty bickering is where its not allowed, such orderly environments as Nazi Germany, the USSR, you know...

[quote="The U.K. operators seem to understand they are in business and are all competing with each other for the same tourist dollars. Why would you ever provide free advertising for your competitor?quote]

BECAUSE WE'RE NOT IN COMPETITION WITH EACH OTHER.

We are, as an industry, in competition with all the other ways in which people will spend their time and money in search of experiences which will interest and involve them in a meaningful way. People who try a train ride and like it will ride more trains. People who visit museums and like it will visit more museums.

The actions of any operator have the potential to turn on or turn off any consumer for us all.

Restrooms are one of the primary reasons people like or dislike our operations (Randy, feel free to add here). If I knew another operator had lousy restrooms, I wouldn't link to them either. Given the state of British plumbing, that is more likely to be the reason.........

dave

Dave -

Well, I can see it both ways. There are times when visitors will say that they have just been to rail attraction A and after spending time at our place, they will be heading to rail attraction B. So, in that case, we compliment each other. But there are also times when visitors will say that "we decided to take a trip and picked your museum" (over either our "competitors" A or B). So, it can go both ways. All in all though, I would say that I think that it behooves us to treat the other rail attractions as part of the same effort even though at times our visitors MIGHT pick A or B over us.

Les

I'd be more concerned with cultivating the kind of people who would want to visit rail attractions at all. People who go to A, will tend to go to B eventually. Grow more of them.

Well, there is a small fleet of engines nearby that they may be considering.... Recently manufactured and low maintenance. Locomotive emmisions can be reduced to zero with a flick of a switch.

The engines are consistent performers and has operated on lines all over the United States. In fact they're in service through much of the summer and into fall and spring. The trips frequently sell out, and they're enjoyed by folks of all ages (OK, well maybe not teens...)

I think we may be on to something.

Hey Strasburg, how much for "Thomas the Greenbriar"?

"The Tornado project tips the scale for Great Britain."

Indeed it was a fantastic EUROPEAN achievement.

TH

you know, when discussing c&o 614 like this, Ross usually would've chimed in by now to deny everything...

He did...

LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS

Ross Rowland

i completely missed both of those posts, how is that possible? (rhetorical question)