Assuming the Chinese do drop their last fires in 2002, that would make a large supply of locomotives and parts available for purchase. Unless, like the Mexicans, they price them out of the range of most potential buyers, this would seem like an opportunity for museums and individuals to acquire and modify a substantial array of locos. Are any operations looking towards this resource? What about the parts infrastructure?
Chinese steam looks pretty close to North American. A fairly competant shop could easily modify the engines to look like just about any U.S. road style.

glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

Posted on a board that specializes in Chinese steam:

"Managers at Jitong railway said last autumn that I could get a newly repaired QJ from Sujiatun for 300.000 RMB....." That's about $41,000, not bad for a working standard guage 2-10-2.

Plus freight and the cost of FRA compliance.

> Posted on a board that specializes in
> Chinese steam:

> "Managers at Jitong railway said last
> autumn that I could get a newly repaired QJ
> from Sujiatun for 300.000 RMB....."
> That's about $41,000, not bad for a working
> standard guage 2-10-2.

> Plus freight and the cost of FRA compliance.

Thats about the price of a delux SUV in the US. It seems like a guy could get about 10 of these for the price of one US restoration job!

Maybe some shortlines will get the message and diss their diesels and replace them with the cheap steam! We can hope anyway!

Someplace like the Apache Railway instead of being all-ALCO would be ALL-DATONG Works.
Greg Scholl


Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

I had the chance to see steam in China 15 years ago (including a tour of the Datong Works), and as much as I enjoyed it, I really believe that Chinese Steam belongs in China, and whatever scarce dollars exist for such things should be used to preserve and restore OUR railroad history. As has been noted elsewhere in these discussions, there is no shortage of worthwhile projects, and certainly no excess of funds for them.

Besides, I think all of us would be highly upset if our railroad heritage were exported wholesale overseas. What the Chinese really do need is help in making their National Railroad Museum (in Shenyang, I believe) into more than the dead line of rusting artifacts it was when I was there. It was worse than St. Louis in it's darkest days.

As much as I would love to own, or be part of a group that would own a steam loco from China, I think that would be the wrong way to spend the limited amount of disposable income most of us who care about this sort of thing have to spend.

pww57@hotmail.com

Paul: You make a good point regarding heritage, but I have a strong suspicion that it wouldn't matter if the average Chinese citizen wanted to preserve his railway heritage or not; the state will cut up for steel anything that is available, and to heck with history. Let's go one step further and say that I want to restore operation to a line nearby where I live, or assume a railroad scrapped all it's steam in "the great purge of the 50's", then this would be a great opportunity for a steam heritage revival. Rather than see it as a drain off North American restoration projects, I would see it as a chance to expand the public re-introduction to operational steam. As a foremost capitalist (rail)roader, the potential for purchase of a rebuilt and fairly modern 2-8-2 or 2-10-2 seems very appealing. Rather than turn my back to it, I'd say grab at the brass ring.
Let me also say that I see your point very clearly and it does hold a great deal of validity.


glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

> Paul: You make a good point regarding
> heritage, but I have a strong suspicion that
> it wouldn't matter if the average Chinese
> citizen wanted to preserve his railway
> heritage or not; the state will cut up for
> steel anything that is available, and to
> heck with history. Let's go one step further
> and say that I want to restore operation to
> a line nearby where I live, or assume a
> railroad scrapped all it's steam in
> "the great purge of the 50's",
> then this would be a great opportunity for a
> steam heritage revival. Rather than see it
> as a drain off North American restoration
> projects, I would see it as a chance to
> expand the public re-introduction to
> operational steam. As a foremost capitalist
> (rail)roader, the potential for purchase of
> a rebuilt and fairly modern 2-8-2 or 2-10-2
> seems very appealing. Rather than turn my
> back to it, I'd say grab at the brass ring.
> Let me also say that I see your point very
> clearly and it does hold a great deal of
> validity.

Well said Richard. I agree, and to add to that I was thinking that some marginal tourist lines might be able to afford to run steam doing it this way versus no steam at all, or some non-descript diesel. I don't want to ignore American Steam, but the fact of the matter is that the restoration costs of some of these engines is getting to the point where fewer will be feasible.

I find it at least encouraging that these things are available for purchase.

I just wish we had track over here that would accomodate a South African 25NC(4-8-4) which I would love to see preserved in the states. Some of them were sold to New Zeeland a few years back. Its better than scrapping them.

Greg


Pair of 25NC's in 1984
sales@gregschollvideo.com

If the tooling and patterns and dies used to build the Chinese steam loocmotives was also preserved the greatest problems associated with the continued maintenence of US operating steam would be solved - a dependable and cost effective supply of spares. Instead of agonizing over how to repair that cylinder saddle, you could just order a new one. The use of "generic" Chinese steam on tourist railroads as as interpretive tools in museums would conserve the remaining fabric of historic US steam locomotives as well.

Of course 30 miles later you might be hungry again.........

But kidding aside, there are some real benefits.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Item: Restoration of WLE384 0-6-0 estimated at $300,000 to $500,000.

Item: Chinese Steam Locomotive @ $41,000, shipping and handling and refit estimate $100,000 say $200,000, HMMMMM

How bad do you want to be in the "Steam" business ?


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Just some thoughts if there are any serious plans to rescue a Chineese locomotive...

The Chinese may have copied American locomotives and appliances to some extent, but I'm not sure they never duplicated the quality of say, Lima, so let the buyer beware. You will rearely find a high quality product come out of a Communist contry. Steam power isn't worth the gamble if you plan to run it.

My father-in-law had a Russian built farm tractor for a time and he wasn't overly thrilled with it due to the lousy craftmanship. Pride in workmanship is a non-issue when you are just a number to the government.

Dave Conrad would be the one to talk with BEFORE making the trip.

Some of their standard boiler practices they employ may not be compatable US codes. The one that came to the Valley Railroad in Essex, CT a number of years ago may have been built differently (custom) than normal per code requirements?????

* Item: Restoration of WLE384 0-6-0 estimated at $300,000 to $500,000.

* Item: Chinese Steam Locomotive @ $41,000, shipping and handling and refit estimate $100,000 say $200,000,
Hmmm

* How bad do you want to be in the "Steam" business ?

* * * * * *
Perhaps this is question that could best be answered by J. David Conrad. If memory serves me correctly, he was involved in the technical aspects of adapting the three 2-8-2s for import to the U.S. Maybe those engines being retired in China could best be adapted there - and at a much lower cost.



hcastle@rcn.com

Ray,

David Wardale discusses this issue at some length in his book "The Red Devil and Other Tales from the Age of Steam".

According to what he saw in 2 years of working at the Datong Locomotive Works, the Datong-built steamers (QJ 2-10-2's and JS 2-8-2's) were pretty shoddily built, at least in the waning days of steam production in the 1980's. He cites example after example of incredibly poor workmanship at the factory. It may be that earlier engines are of much better quality, or once Datong engines have been in service for a few years and have been rebuilt somewhere else, most of the major defects may be corrected.

Wardale also mentions that the Tangshan-built SY 2-8-2's were of much better quality. Since David chose to import Tangshan-built SY's to the U.S., this would appear to backup Wardale's observations.

I'm sure David can address the issue at length, but the biggest complication would be bringing a Chinese-built boiler into U.S. code compliance. I believe the engines actually imported into the U.S. were granted special waivers to be allowed to operate. With the recently enacted new boiler regulations for tourist steamers, it might be even harder to do this now.

Still, if you could buy a 2-10-2 in good mechanical condition for only $41k, I'd think it would be worth the expense of fabricating a whole new ASME-code boiler if that's what it took.

By the way, just for reference, a QJ is very close in major dimensions to a USRA light 2-10-2.

Good Steaming,
Hugh Odom

> Just some thoughts if there are any serious
> plans to rescue a Chineese locomotive...

> The Chinese may have copied American
> locomotives and appliances to some extent,
> but I'm not sure they never duplicated the
> quality of say, Lima, so let the buyer
> beware. You will rearely find a high quality
> product come out of a Communist contry.
> Steam power isn't worth the gamble if you
> plan to run it.

> My father-in-law had a Russian built farm
> tractor for a time and he wasn't overly
> thrilled with it due to the lousy
> craftmanship. Pride in workmanship is a
> non-issue when you are just a number to the
> government.

> Dave Conrad would be the one to talk with
> BEFORE making the trip.

> Some of their standard boiler practices they
> employ may not be compatable US codes. The
> one that came to the Valley Railroad in
> Essex, CT a number of years ago may have
> been built differently (custom) than normal
> per code requirements?????


The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com

J. David is busy finishing a 1472 day inspection in Cumberland at the moment, so I do not know if he will catch up with this thread, he does not have a laptop.

When I went with J. David to China a year and a half ago, we saw physical confirmation of the lesser desireability of the last built JS's The dead lines were filled with JS with higher numbers than the JS we saw running. (No matter which railway they run on, most loco classes in China are consecutively numbered). Also, just call Dave. He is a legitimate dealer for the Chinese Machinery Corp, and they will quote locos on our dock here in the good old USA. I think the rebuilt on the dock price two years ago was about $300,000.

Now as regards the new FRA Part 230. The major change with the SY that J. David imported was certified firebox steel from France, and the full countersinking of all staybolt welding. I believe a few staybolts were moved arround also. Also J. David's locomotives were right hand drive. A couple of new patterns were made to accomodate this. The other practice, which was waived in the case of Dave's locos, and which may have trouble with New 230, is that none of the welding on the boiler is fully stress relieved. This runs more into problems with American Standard Practice, I cannot remember what New 230 says specifically about this. Mind you, in the Chinese boilers, the rivets that hold the courses together are actually just pegs that have been ring welded on both ends.

Steve

FWIW: The imported JS is a late model, completely stock, with no Conrad modifications.

> Just some thoughts if there are any serious
> plans to rescue a Chineese locomotive...

> The Chinese may have copied American
> locomotives and appliances to some extent,
> but I'm not sure they never duplicated the
> quality of say, Lima, so let the buyer
> beware. You will rearely find a high quality
> product come out of a Communist contry.
> Steam power isn't worth the gamble if you
> plan to run it.

> My father-in-law had a Russian built farm
> tractor for a time and he wasn't overly
> thrilled with it due to the lousy
> craftmanship. Pride in workmanship is a
> non-issue when you are just a number to the
> government.

> Dave Conrad would be the one to talk with
> BEFORE making the trip.

> Some of their standard boiler practices they
> employ may not be compatable US codes. The
> one that came to the Valley Railroad in
> Essex, CT a number of years ago may have
> been built differently (custom) than normal
> per code requirements?????


SZuidervee@aol.com

I seem to recall China also ran a lot of steam manufactured elsewhere - US Army 0-6-0s and 2-8-0s come to mind as well as really fine Mitsubishi light pacifics. Perhaps these are available as well?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Dave,

I know that at least one or two of the US Army 2-8-0's were spotted in service in the 80's, and I believe the rail "museum" has examples of some of their imported steamers.

As far as Chinese-built engines, I always thought one of the RM 4-6-2's would have made a nice engine to import.

Unfortunately, from the photos I've seen, as steam operations started winding down back in the 80's the "non-standard" steamers were the first things to be scrapped. It may be that there's not much left besides JF, JS and SY 2-8-2's and QJ 2-10-2's.

Hugh

> I seem to recall China also ran a lot of
> steam manufactured elsewhere - US Army
> 0-6-0s and 2-8-0s come to mind as well as
> really fine Mitsubishi light pacifics.
> Perhaps these are available as well?

> Dave


The Ultimate Steam Page
whodom@awod.com

Another thought for you NG folks- Rob Dickinson's "International Working Steam Locomotives" page has an update on the emminent demise of the Chinese 762 mm (about 30 inch) gauge logging lines. These lines all use neat little modern 0-8-0 "C2" tender engines. They're superheated, have all-weather cabs, and they even appear to have roller bearing the rods. It might be possible to reguage one to 36" with wider tires. With a little cosmetic work they could be made to look American. It might be neat to have switching engines for some of our western NG railways.

Hugh

International Working Steam Locomotives

whodom@awod.com