Wouldn't rejacketing the locomotive be "gilding the lilly" just a bit? The locomotive had no jacketing when removed from the museum.

Ross can correct me if I am wrong but I remember the 614 being for sale for $500,000.00. His estimate to return 614 to service is about the same as that for 261, $500,000.00 or more. Other than the roller bearing rods and booster, currently out of service, the 2 engines are the same commodity in todays excursion engine world. The 614 perhaps being slightly superior due to the roller rods and booster. To my knowlege Ross has found no takers. Reportedly, the museum wants something like $1.8 million for 261. How can they possilby justify that figure?

My conclusion is the NRM wants their engine back. As painful as it may be to the folks at Friends I think they probably have no option but to give NRM what they want. It is also apparent NRM does not feel the revenue from the lease of 261 is worth the value of the engine as a static display. It is nice to know that at least one museum does not need additional income.

John Bohon

Just a couple more thoughts on this...

First, NRM is something of the definition of "out of the way". No slight intended, it's just a harsh reality. As someone else pointed out, the majority of your museum visitors are families and people on vacation, not railfans. I'm sure that Green Bay and it's surrounding areas have a host of cultural attractions that they're proud of, but living just over 200 miles away in Chicagoland, I'm not aware of them.

And NRM has had nothing interesting enough of a draw for me personally to make a special trip. I have been to NRM 4 times over the last 10-15 years, once as part of a business trip to Appleton, once as my reward for being kidnapped by the wife to Door County for a long weekend, and twice for early season Packer games. As Mr Mitchell described his encounters, I would similarily describe my visits as semi-"undercover", I observed as a typical visitor, with something of an insider's mindset within the realm of my admittedly tiny little brain. Nice place, nothing that really grabbed you, you'd be hard pressed to find more than an hour or two to occupy your time. (And I'll follow that up again by saying,no slight intended, perhaps I just have more diverse/obscure interests, god knows that's a likely probability)

Frankly given the option of NRM 200 odd miles to the north/northeast, and NMOT in St Louis, just under 300 miles to the south/southwest, I'll drive the extra 90 minutes to St Louis. And I know it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison, but my point is, what do you have to attract visitors ?????? One man's opinion, adding a stuffed and mounted 261 isn't tipping the scales in favor of a trip to NRM.

Long story short, NRM (in this one man's opinion) seems to have missed the obvious promotional value of 261 traveling the country and getting their name out there, and now seems bent on raiding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, a pot of gold that simply doesn't exist.

Let's not forget (or more aptly remind NRM) that 261 by itself as an operating locomotive is essentially worthless from an economic sustainability point, unless you have the ability to stuff 3-4 riders in the cab and charge tens of thousands of dollars for the ride, clearly you need a train behind the drawbar. Owned or leased, that equals money as well. And like the 261, besides any lease or purchase costs, you have all the usual, insurance, maintenance, operating costs, etc. All of which has been on the Friends' dime, not NRM's. It appears to this outsider that NRM has an unrealistic view of the "profitability" of this operation. Which by no means indicates that I think the Friends group is living a monastic life-style, but I don't see Steve or anyone else zipping around in Ferrari's either.

Second question,
Is NRM a state sponsored museum, are they getting support from the State of Wisconsin, where is their money going ? To my knowledge, they have not added any new pieces of equipment in recent past, and has been noted here over the last year or so, they have at least tried to deaccession some of the equipment and try to find new homes for it.

Third,
Lost in all of this would be the Friends position. At some point, while I'm sure that there has become a very sentimental attachment to the 261 and all of it's memories, there has to be a mindset of "I've had enough of this, time to move forward"
It has been noted that if this ends up with 261 being stuffed and mounted back in Green Bay that Steve and the Friends would be looking at taking a year's hiatus.
Sounds very much to me like someone very worn from fighting political battles just in order to be able to fight the day to day battles.

I say pick another engine. Variety has its own appeal.

We never announced our upset price when we held the auction sale of 614. The only bid the auction attracted was one from Andy Muller of $ 200k ( if memory serves me correctly) which was way under our minimum. However, John Bohon's major point is valid. The 2 machines are very close to each other mechanically with the 614 being more thoroughly roller bearinged, but both will require nearly the same monetary investment to return to service.

My suspicion is that John Cloos is spot on regarding the pot of gold that simply put "ain't there". As I mentioned in my post above I hit the same problem with the Steamtown Foundation BOD in the 70's. They'd see press coverage of the sold-out HICO excursions with 1,000 riders and were convinced we were minting money. Even when we went to great lengths to show them that the expenses consistently exceeded the revenues they'll still didn't get it. I'm afraid that Steve Sandberg is fighting the same mentality??

If that's the case...well then I'd guess there's little choice but to give them back their property and wish them good luck!!!

As the old adage goes...you can lead 'em to water..................

Ross Rowland

Yeah, we'd be giving more than we got, but we need to get rid of the jacketing somehow, so we might as well let them have it. It can be re-applied in a relatively short time.
Mark D.

You know, it's a rather sad discussion, isn't it? How do museums acquire people at the head end, who know perhaps nothing about the expenses of running live steam nor the revenues that might be generated? Ultimately, the cost has been several hot, awe-inspiring locomotives, the cost of rebuilding them, and two generations of children who may never be informed that the internal combustion engine and the electric motor are not the beginning and end of railroading.

The unanswered question is, at least to me, how locomotives like 4449, 765, 844 & 3985, can be operated, unless it's a break-even situation, or someone else is writing a check to purchase the experience?

"Yellow Ribbon" or "The Greenbriar" might underwrite restoration of 614 to provide an experience, but otherwise, it sounds like this is a situation in which few winners can be expected.

I like the comment, and agree heartily with it, "A hot live steam locomotive is far better than a stuffed, cold one" (I am paraphrasing here). It would seem like any museum that can get a locomotive back into serviceable condition would grab at the opportunity. Dammit, they were built to be run!

Well John, I''ll not argue the pluses and minuses of the Green Bay area, having grown up and lived most of my sixty years here except for three years in your Chicago area while in college. Besides right now we're too busy arguing how to welcome back Farve with the Vikings this weekend. :-)
To answer your second question, The museum gets nothing from the state. The term "National" was an honorary designation with no monetary support from any government. I am also a member at that museum, but do not believe it is my position to speak on their behalf. The letter from the president of the board at the top of this thread states the board's position, and plenty of others have chosen to state how much of that is just damage control, vs their true thoughts. We had chosen to maintain confidentiality during negotiations which is why there has been so much silence from official sources, as well as the reason why there has been no official response to these threads, despite a lot of misinformation and half truths floating around. By trying to correct a few facts, the big picture becomes distorted, and I have not found a way to reconcile those issues.
As for your third point, yes, all those emotions come into play. Going once again to the professional sports analogy, there is an emotional side to this and a business side, and we have experienced many of the emotions you speak of. Sometimes it's hard to put a lot of blood sweat and tears (not to mention thousands of volunteer hours by dozens of people) into a project for 17 years to help the museum fulfill it's mission statement in what we believed was a real win-win relationship, and then have the possibility of it all ending because of some inability to communicate the correctness of one's position on the business side of things. I hold out hope that it's not over till it's over, and still rack my brain on ways to improve the communication in the negotiation process better.

There is a book by John Gruber just published this week, Classic Steam, Timeless Photographs of North American Steam Railroading with a forward by Bill Withuhn. In that forward Bill states:
"We need to appreciate the people and generations on whose shoulders we stand.
Which leads to an important but often neglected point: locomotives don't move the trains. People move the trains. A locomotive is a tool used in human effort.
One wouldn't say that a saw and a hammer build the house; the carpenter does. Railroad people all lived, and live today, in a craft culture. Special skills are required."

I believe this is the crux of the discussion in our negotiations, Is the success of the 261 operations due to the iconic nature of the 261, or the people in the organizations that have made it successful? And how does one put a value on that iconic nature? Is the 261 just an "asset" like a hammer and saw. or somethings more?

I would be interested in hearing how other people in similar situations dealt with these discussions.

I also hold out hope that a collegial and consensus forming attutude will hopefully be more sucessful in concluding these negotiations in a win-win situation than a confrontational one.

Ed Selinsky

One issue that John Bohon raises and that is what is a 4-8-4 worth in todays marketplace? The short answer is very little. Why? Because in todays railroad reality it is extremely difficult or impossible and extremely expensive to put all the pieces together so that the machine can operate and generate at least some gross revenues.

In CSX and NS territories it's flat out impossible. Thanks to a lot of long term hard work Steve Sandberg&Co. have developed professional respect/relationships at CPR,BNSF,UPRR and Amtrak that have allowed his team to at least got out there a few times a year. The West Coast guys also have worked hard to kindle relationships with the UPRR and BNSF and the shortlines so as to be able to do at least a little running. However, even in the best of these situations the machines don't operate anywhere near frequently enough to generate the kind of cash flows needed to justify investing $ 500,000 or more to meet the new FRA regs.

Therefore, in todays reality the 4-8-4 is really only worth what someone(s) thinks it's worth for sentimental reasons, not commercial reasons.

I've again been hearing that the fellow who owns the liens on the RDG 2100 has decided to auction it off to attempt to get at least a little of his money back and my advice to them has been to not expext any bids greater than approx. scrap value due to both the above realities and the mechanical punishment that this engine suffered during the ill fated Tacoma operation.

If the decision makers at the NRM think the 261 has a real value of much more than scrap value ( approx. $ 75,000 at todays scrap prices) they're sadly mistaken.

IMHO, Ross Rowland

NRM is, IMHO, also ignores the value the Friends bring for which without there is little reason to consider putting a fire in any mainline sized steam locomotive:

1) A string of Amtrak qualified cars that aren't Amfleet cars;
2) A strong working relationship with Amtrak without there would be no trip;
3) A strong force of volunteers to make it all happen;
4) An amazing operational and safety record.

Seems to me, these days, point number one is perhaps of more value than the locomotive. What other group can bring this to the table without the cost of leasing and moving cars that are scattered about? Perhaps JJJ.

Shoot, perhaps NRM should be paying Sandberg and friends for the publicity and the honor. I have no connection, nor was I ever lucky enough to see 261 on it's trips east.

Bob

I went to the NRM last fall as a part of the Tourist Railway Association convention. It was an interesting visit. I saw some of the nicest display areas I've ever seen, on a par with Sacramento and the B&O. I also saw poor rusting hulks out in the "back 40". They've done a lot, but they have far more to do. On the whole, I'd say it's a very nice museum, and they've done some great work.

One thing I will also say is that it was a large and impressive collection of equipment. I don't know how many locomotives they have on hand, but it was a lot. A quick check online says 13, sounds about right, or at least pretty close.

So... that raises the question I'd like to ask the NRM board.

If 261 is returned to the fold, just how many additional visitors do you think it will attract? I'm pretty sure you're not going to steam it up and run it around that loop track (the curves don't exactly look 4-8-4 friendly). So, presumably it's going to be on static display somewhere.

How many folks haven't visited now, but if 261 is on site will suddenly say "Good, now I've FINALLY got a reason to drive to Green Bay and visit that musuem!"

Are there really any tourists out there who will say "Well, a museum with 13 steam locomotives isn't good enough, they need another 4-8-4 before I'll show up... Oh, and by the way, what is a 4-8-4 anyway?"

I have no idea what they're making off the lease, but assuming they're not paying the 261 folks to keep her, I can't believe the small group of 261 fans that would come to the museum and see her would generate more revenue than the lease.

By the way, when I say "small group of 261 fans" be sure and note that it includes the words "that would come to the museum and see her". I know 261 has a well deserved huge fan base. However, I think the vast majority of those folks would not make a visit to Green Bay specifically to see the engine on display cold.

It's not a question of whether there are railfans out there that would visit the museum, there are lots of them. The question is "Are there fans who would visit ONLY if 261 is here?" I think that group is a small number.

On the other hand, maybe there's more to the story... Maybe the museum wants the engine back and plans to operate her, either locally or on their own larger excursions. That would be an entirely different proposition. However, I don't get that impression.

We have established that NRM is trying to get more value out of this deal, and we also have pretty much established that NRM has received very little PR value from the previous agreement. How about a deal that allows for a couple of annual joint operations out of Green Bay? Perhaps then NRM would have a chance to more realistically evaluate the benefits and limitations of mainline steam operations?

By the way, don't the friends have the book keeping to show NRM their actual financial performance? Seems like that could put the matter to rest.

I'm quite sure the 261 has operated out of GB before for support of the museum, can someone verify that for me? Don't know the arrangements, when it was last done, or how often.

Joshua

See the attendance figures at VMT for the answer to these questions. Paid attendance has been pretty much in decline since 1994.

This input is strictly from a steam railfan. I have loved my sometime affiliation with 261, as well as with all of the other operating steam locomotives. I am a fan, and love the smell of coal, or oil, smoke, the sounds of cross-compound air pumps, blowers, pops lifted before leaving on an excursion, cylinder cocks open for the first few rotations of the drivers. If the 261 goes on static display, I have no motivation to go view her. What the heck, I saw her when she was alive, and contributed money to ride or chase her.
I have no knowledge of NRM ever running 261. Doubt it. I know that Steve Sandberg and the Friends of 261 have run her and taken great care of her for 15 years. As a fan, to me this is a disaster.