Ok, let me pose this to the group. Let's say that you have a piece of equipment, for example a Southern gondola. Now let's say that the railroad your group preserves (we'll use Conrail as an exapmle) had the same type of car but all examples of your railroad's cars were scrapped. Is it OK to repaint the "Southern" gondola to "Conrail" paint as a representative of that type of car? (And no, the CRHS didn't get a SOU gon, I'm just asking) Thoughts?
Russ

It depends............

Do you own the gondola? Are you loaning it to them or selling it to them? Are they going to attempt to pass it off as the real thing at a museum, or use it in a photo charter or Hollywood movie?

Is this a true "preservation" project? If so, is the car to the exact same plans as the Conrail design by the same maker?

It would be for a historical collection. It would be owned by the group and the information posted about the car would explain its heritage and why it was repainted. Also, the car would be of the same design as one Conrail had.

My view?

No. Not proper. Basically, you would be lying, making something that "isn't", "is".

The problem is museum standards today will probably not be the same museum standards tomorrow, and changes you make today will rip to shreds the historic fabric that may be very valuable tomorrow. The standards will very likely get more restrained, as they have in the past.

The people involved with antiquities have figured this out, and that is why they are generally real sticklers for keeping an artifact "real".

What if you take this Southern gondola and repaint it to Conrail - then 50 years from now, beyond your lifetime, the Southern guys get a hold of your gondola for their museum. More proper, correct? Except you stripped off all the original paint, and maybe some Southern specific details. Maybe in the future, correct original paint, even decayed, will be the gold standard. You do not know - we do not know.

The thing about historic fabric is that once torn, it can NEVER be mended.

There comes a time when railroad museums, or any other museums, just have to face the fact that something they lust for just isn't anymore.

--
Will

My personal feelings are that a group should be able to do anything they want with their equipment, so long as the equipment is saved.

One example would be our Alco S1 switcher which is currently painted in Erie-Lackawanna maroon and gray. The EL switchers never actually carried this paint scheme, but it was determined at a membership meeting that the maroon and gray was far more visually appealing than the black and yellow EL colors.

Another hypothetical example would be if a group had several identical boxcars of the same heritage. If they are representative of the type of car used on other roads, I see no problem in painting them up for those other railroads. I think the 1225 group up in Michigan even have a single gondola painted for two different railroads (PM and C&O if I recall correctly) on either side of the car.

In your case, lets assume that you paint it up in Conrail. The way I see it, nobody should really complain since a good coat of paint will do wonders to protect the equipment. Although you're always going to have the people who will nit-pick the situation to death. Who knows, twenty years down the road, your group may decide to repaint it back to Southern, or maybe pick another railroad entirely. Heck, if you want to repaint it for a different railroad every 5 years and you have the money to do it, I say "go for it!"

I know there is going to be a lot of people who disagree with my viewpoint and I'm OK with that. This is probably going to open up a firestorm of discussion...

Are you trying to preserve a Conrail train? Why not leave it in Southern livery; I'm sure a southern gon was in a Conrail train many times. Of course, either way, paint comes off as well as on. Nobody should get too peeved about something that's documented and reversible.

Save what you can and do what you can. There are not a lot of freight cars in preservation compared to everything else. If someone has a problem with it then they can save one and do what they think is proper.

Just for the record, not all HVRM members were in favor of this change to an Erie-Lackawanna paint scheme. Yes it's pretty, but it ain't the truth!

Les

I find this to be a most interesting topic. A few years ago my son and I took the outdoor tour of the equipment in the yard at the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum in Strasburg. The guide showed us a piece of equipment - (I cannot remember what, maybe a caboose). He told us that the museum could not decide on how to repaint it as it had served three different railroads. As a result the equipment sat in the elements and continued to rust away. For all I know, it is probably in the same state today. This is what can happen when this is taken to extremes.

This really isn't earth shattering. Of the top of my head I can think of several examples:

-The replica Lehigh Valley, CNJ, DL&W and Erie cab units here in the northeast.
-The PA project in Portland.
-PRR 7002.

All believable re-creations, not restorations. They are something that once was but is no longer.

Then things can get silly, a DL&W painted Canadian Pacific 2317 for example.

Any credible organization should however explain how and why the equipment has been re-created. If you a historical society, museum or similar there should be certain standards to live by. For example, "Don't make stuff up" should be at the top of the list.

The RRMofPA has done a good job of explaining the "PRR 7002 hoax" and it actually makes for a far more compelling story than just another steam engine in the hall. If they had acquired the 611 and painted it PRR, that would be another story.

So if a society should acquire, for argument a C&O covered hopper, a Conrail recreation wouldn't be too far out of line. Painting it in say, British Rail colors, would be... what's the word I'm looking for here... stupid.

My 2 cents.

Dave Crosby

First of all if it is only paint, the change is reversible.

Until recently OERM had a PE car 717, painted as a "Valley 7" car... Red with a cream window band... this car never carried that paint job, but other of that class did... and members wanted a Valley 7... The car has recently been rebuilt/repaired and repainted in a correct all red. No harm no foul. They also have a PE Birney that spent time in Tucson and was painted in Tuscon colors there... The roof has been repainted back to PE brick red, and the rest of the car will eventually follow

There are a number of cases of mostly diesel locomotives which have been painted for a road that did not own them, either because all of that railroads locomotives of that model are gone or not available... Again, Old Tuscon has a single truck Brill car from Portugal which will be restored as a very similar Douglas Arizona car.

Think of all the passenger cars that have been repainted in Daylight to make up train sets for 4449... There are lots of examples of similar train sets created from cars from a variety of origins

There are a number of museums that have painted utility locomotives in "false" paint schemes... like US Army Alcos in Santa Fe Zebra stripe... Which better match what the museum is trying to do.

In some ways I have a bigger problem with the Grey and Yellow Erie switcher mentioned above... By using a livery correct for the railroad, but not for the locomotive in question it is creating evidence of something that didn't exist...

Russ,

You are the CRHS, if you have found a car that would represent something from the Conrail era, then have at it.

I am planing to paint a CR ballast hopper in PRR MOW yellow. They never existed but there are a million of those CR ballast hoppers around that are in dire need of fresh paint. We are not talking about putting a mullet on the Mona Lisa here.

Just like others have pointed out just don't misrepresent what it is.

BTW, As I was sanding through the layers on my ore jenny was I suppose to stop at the barley visible PRR that you could only see if the sun was hitting it just right!

Scott Kwaitkowski
http://www.prrllc.com

Have at it, but *interpret it* for what it really is - a stand-in.

Rob

NKP 765 actualy lived a "Lie" numbered 767 while it was on display in Lawton Park in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. 767 is significant as it was the first celebrated locomotive to cross over the new Ft Wayne NKP elevation. The city wanted to have a momento of that time and 767 was in poor shape and 765 was in good shape recently outshopped, so the switcheroo and 767 was scrapped. Technically the engines were renumbered so 767 actually sat in Lawton Park..errr no it didnt.

Another issue is a car from the Aurora Elgine and Fox River after serving the line a few years was sold to the Cleveland Shaker Hights line and ran there the rest of its career then was donated to the Trolleyville collection. Well now after The Lakeshore group picked up the Trolleville cars and auctioning off most of the cars, the AE&FRE car returned to the same line it ran on at the Fox Valley Museum. They are going to repaint the car to the original AE&FRE scheme.

It may be a complicated issue determining how to represent a piece of equipment, whats important is you have its history down, so if you repainted a gondola to represent a different line its design ran on, make sure you record that historical notion you did that. The Virginian E33's after N&W bought them went on to other lines making a long and many railroaded career.

Its also like the DM&IR ran their yellowstones, but during the winter months when the line didnt run, the engines were borrowed to D&RGW, but they werent repainted.

The North Shore often borrowed off equipment to run on the CA&E during car shortages, but neve repainted CA&E, but was a sister railroad because of the Insull enfluence and could easily crossover and run on the CA&E.

Historically your gondola never ran on the "other" line. What you could do is have a model of the similar car painted in the scheme you want and sell the car and be a moneymaker. Museums do this a lot for gift shops, etc.

I'm not saying don't repaint it but you would lose the historical sense if it wasn't painted in the scheme the car actually ran.

Well, how about the two GP30s on the Western Maryland? Not only were they not WM units, but the WM never rostered GP30s.

So what were they supposed to do, paint the one PRR and the other Reading? That wouldn't make sense.

Or 734 for example...not only is it not a former WM steamer, but it does not resemble the real WM 734 in almost any light.

So we'd have the "Western Maryland Scenic" pulled by an LS&I 2-8-0, leading a collection of former MARC, NS, and other passenger cars, all the while being pushed up the mountain by a Reading and PRR GP30s... :) I'm fine with putting WM on everything..